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We are just your average married couple who love watching and talking about science-fiction television. The Expanse is the series we’re talking about and one we’re watching through for the first time! Listen to us break down episodes of The Expanse and see if it’s as good as everyone says it is. Exploring The Expanse is released to our Patreon first and so if you want to hear more of our discussions then come over and support the podcast.
This week we’re exploring The Expanse episode “Remember the Cant”
It’s time to unleash the blue goo!
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[Music] hi Ryan hello Rachel how you doing oh I'm I'm on the edge of my seat Rachel everything's popping off in the world okay well okay I'll be I'll be okay all all of the you know things aside I'm on the edge of my seat because we had an episode of the expans today yes that had Brian George in it yes and I love Brian George and so I I can't wait to get into into this because of what I call the George Factor so uh how about you how are you going overall pretty good just pretty good yeah just pretty good so uh what are we doing here today I mention the expans we're talking about it is this a Brian George podcast the actor who's from everywhere in the world guys go down a rabbit hole of looking at Brian George's life the guy's everywhere he's he he's everywhere born in Jerusalem everywhere man he's been everywhere he's been everywhere he's played everything God love him he so good but what are we what are we doing here what's this podcast I've got a microphone so I'm assuming we're a podcast or are we calling for an SOS please save us we're stuck in a bunker and I don't know how to get out all I have is Sci-Fi TV to keep me company no we're not currently watching Discovery that's not to keep me company that's for torture yeah no no I'm not trapped in a bunker with you forcing me to watch Star Trek Discovery this time you're making me watch the expanse I'm making me watch it too yes and we've both never seen it before and we are the only podcast that brings the Yum Yum perspective to the experience plenty of other people talk about it but none none none bring the Yum Yum perspective or the Yum Yum energy like we do what's yum yum in reference to for those who are new and need to be caught up a bit we have some new people in reference to Star Trek discovery where an individual who was on set was paid to say the line yum yum and she decided to sexily flip her hair and lick her lips as part of that line delivery and that was her response to being asked if she was Keen to go murder somebody what what's really brilliant about the line is some people may say that doesn't sound that that bad that sounds a bit like campy fun and that has its place for instance this particular episode of the expanse had some humor that could have actually used yum yum in it and it would have been in place why it's so striking to us is it's so out of place out of nowhere completely random in Star Trek Discovery a show especially in season 2 that could be best described as a tonal Nightmare and so when that happened it spired us and so we're here podcasting we're watching episodes of Science Fiction television one episode at a time we've done Star Trek Discovery we've done Babylon 5 we've done space above and beyond and here on our for our patrons first that's right if you're listening to this on the Main feed you can head over to our patreon and hear our thoughts on the expanse in beforehand before it gets up on the Main feed by the time you hear this we're pretty far through the show so come on over to our patreon so you can support us and hear what we have to say about this and a whole plethora of other things now uh yeah must be like four bucket loads at must be like five bucket loads worth of content and uh full disclosure uh I've only seen the first six or seven episodes of the expans when they first aired and I will be honest with you right now none of it has stuck with me so when I'm rewatching it today I I not all of this is new I was I was surprised I was on the edge of my seat I was going oh this completely only some things have stuck with me and they mainly from the first episode but uh here we are Rachel we're we're on the third episode of of this so could you please tell us what it is all about and what's the title again remember Holden and crew are taken prisoner aboard the marshan Navy Flagship the donaga and are forced to turn on one another Miller contends with RI on series he connects Julie to the mysterious deric ship the scopuli Ava salara engages in a nasty game of politics with an old friend let's give some quick fire thoughts on this particular one I I'll go first I thought this was a major improvement over the last two episodes it is a better understanding of how to tell a story and let the momentum of the story bolster and in inform us on character if I have to give it a a major weakness if I if there's a a sticking point to me and this is one where I understand why it's like this and it makes sense and I enjoy it nonetheless I I didn't need three plots going on this was one where I really could have lived with an AB plot structure to it mainly having Holden and crew and Miller's side of it I loved what was going on with the UN and it is Central to the story as well but there was just an element of I want more of like I want these stories to breathe a little longer I want more scenes dedicated to the interrogations and to what Miller's going on in his case and just a little bit more of time spent on those even though I love what's going on with Christian I I was looking at it going you are the thing getting in the way of the other two stories right now in terms of me being able to connect more fully to them interesting I'm finding it solid in the three story lines approach feel like they've got a pretty good balance between the three of them and it's very clear that all of these things are happening at the same time so they need to be shown M at the same point because they're all connected to each other so it matters that these riots are happening at the same time as her playing politics and him facing interrogation like they're happening on the same day so they need to be in the same episode oh it is beautifully structured that's one of my highest Praises for the expanse out of the gate is they know how to structure their episodes very well maybe it's just myself as a viewer and somebody who has to commentate on TV I am so comfortable with AB stories and so I haven't really had to contend with a show like this where it is AB and C all the time each episode has been very tightly wound in a b and c would disagree with what you said before I don't think they've got the structure of their episodes down pad I do think that this is an improvement I do think they have the structure of the stories down pth which I think is maybe more what you meant yeah so what are your uh quickfire thoughts on remember the Cs it was okay I still don't really care I do think that this is an improvement I agree with that I cared more about what was happening in this episode but I still don't care about the characters yeah I can see where that point of view is coming from I I I think that they're getting better with the character work specifically with Holden and his and his crew mates but Miller's storyline and even back at the UN there's elements where it's lacking for me as well but they're definitely taking steps in that direction I I think that this is a modern Prestige show where the story lines the the the the emphasis on plot means that the character building has to be woven into that well in something like say Babylon 5 a series that we've covered EXT or even space Above and Beyond they'll have whole scenes just dedicated to character stuff and that's the scene like here's a scene of AA being teased by gab Baldi and Sheridan for getting bacon and eggs from a potential love interest and it's like that's the scene it's really funny or in space above and beyond here's a whole scene of uh of commodore Ross playing the guitar it's not propelling the story forward but it's nice character stuff while this isn't interested in that and that's kind of like a lot of shows of of this era of TV where that stuff has to be woven in and almost justifies propelling story forward or propelling theme forward like getting to see dude's feet okay actor update time so uh Thomas Jane he's in he's already he's one of the leads love Thomas Jane but he is a foot freak guy and what I mean by that is he is known in real life as an actor to want to be barefoot at all times if possible and so in filming scenes at comiccons at interviews or red carpets he will most likely be barefoot and so it is hilarious to me that we're three episodes in and 70% of the time we've spent with Miller has been shots of his feet being shoeless and I've I've had a good chuckle at that noticing I'm like Thomas Jane got to have his bare feet just just be here uh Brian George has already been mentioned but God it was great to see him here what a what a perfect casting Choice as her husband I mean you've seen Brian George in a million things as well is he the Yum Yum candid oh I found him sexy as hell in this he has his little mustache he's drinking wine and he's worried if it's piss or not and then it's a joke and he went out to play cricket just like how you would expect him to be but uh another piece of actor news we've got Jared Harris here delightful to see him we've been on a Jared Harris kick as of late we watched Chernobyl a little while ago and so it was brilliant to see him I completely forgot that he was in the show at all did you know that Jared Harris was in the expanse yes you did yes I've been waiting for him to appear he was one of the people that you were like and this guy's in it too and I was like ah that guy that guy's always quality he always dies yeah how long till he dies cuz he always dies in everything uh but I I actually forgot and he's like the leader of a terrorist group he's not going to he's not going to live forever no he will most likely die he's played by Jared Harris in and he's in a series yeah he usually dies will will he hang himself his characters yeah they all they often have miserable deaths usually suicides so we'll see how it goes for him like like he's the leader of a terrorist organization Ryan so he'll be fine like one that everybody wants to seem to destroy mhm and uh the other big actor of note that appeared in this episode is is Kenneth Welsh who was uh the Ambassador uh Christian's friend and uh he was in Star Trek Discovery as well he was Senator tal who was the previous Trill host to gray uh the Admiral that they had to uh find in the past and get information from but most notably he was in Twin Peaks he was Windam Earl and a beloved Canadian character actor passed away a little while ago but he is one of those faces just like with so many of the people here is if you know Canadian uh television actors you'll know this guy he's been in everything as well so Wiggy was back again yeah that's true that's true Wiggy AKA Lieutenant neelon from stard Discovery she was here too and note she wasn't blonde and I didn't recognize her I just my brain couldn't recognize a lady unless she's blonde of course so they should stick a wig on her head she is a sex worker after all maybe she has some wigs in the back to favor clients this is a type of show where one of the characters have look gets off at a train station and in Dutch it says that it's the red light district so that's the type of show this is where hey it's selfs serious but there's a little bit of goofiness too in there stay calm to every time better have a good teacher let's kick off with the Martians we meet them hold in totally not evil you know what I kept saying this during the episode and you were like why you saying this I kept saying they're right you know these guys are right the Martians have a point I I know why you're saying that because they are by the end of like as the story unfolds they right to be like this because they're innocent they haven't done anything yeah seemingly yeah I would slightly disagree with
that they are innocent the way that they are going about Pro proving their innocence is dodgy AF yes well but it lines up completely with what we've been given they are a militaristic group and this is the flagship but we have been sprinkled about the Martians oh what are they going to be like and they lived up to everything I wanted them to be I love their uniforms I love their Tech I love their the of these actors just have this certain Aura and attitude to them even Alex when he gets back in that uniform that actor shifts into this way and what I really adore about the Martians unlike with the bels is they don't need any wacky accents or haircuts or whatever to tell me what the attitude is like or what their culture is like all I need to see is how those actors hold them M themselves physically to get the gist across when you get into a science fiction series in particular fantasy as well there's a lot of minutia that they have to go through to make it make sense oh this is how the world works this is how our characters fit into the world this is the economy whenever I have listened to people talk about the expans especially early stages it is often about the technology the politics and the world and all of those things are valuable and important of course but when you're just somebody coming into a into a series you want to know why you should care why you should be invested and for for us as viewers in particular it often comes back to Characters themes and then plot I have often said that I can forgive a Bad plot if I have good characters leading me along that journey and aard Picard is a great example where that's a series with no characters I like and a story that doesn't make sense so I hate it very much so and Discovery is a series that frustrates me because it has had good characters but it's had all of the other things turned up to 11 in the bad degree the expanse for me is slowly allowing the characters to Blossom because even uh when they get captured by Mars we we we have our crew and each one of them getting thrown into their cells react in a different way that informs of us of who they are and that there I think is the key at this moment in time to how they are giving us characterization which is through action through action which is the way that we want it we don't want to just be told we want it to be shown we want it to be explored that's what good shows for us do when they're getting thrown in their cells we get Amos who is Mr violent uh angry man and we've been carrying this through and they just tase him first which is called out a future taser and then in their glove the Martians they had something to sedate him and I thought that was a marvelous piece of business there and just when it comes to Amos in this episode it's not necessarily giving us more than we already knew from the previous one other than he has a they they they write humor for him in this one far more in the previous one there was some moments of humor but here there's direct quips and jokes and gags and him being a Lou loud mouth and uh smack talking people he feels more like a person like a character rather than a mouthpiece than necessary necessary dialogue and I believe that the he's another one of those actors now that I've given more time to the show I can look at him and say oh he's clearly one of the best actors on the show he is a human he's making the most out of it he's a human puppy dog because when he's with Naomi he his his physicality changes almost like a dog whose Masters come home from work and they're just happy to see them he's just this adorable little guy but then when she's not around he's this big brute of a man who will kill you she in danger or when she's in in danger and I I really am warming up to him not just because I jokingly said in the previous episode he wanted to kill Holden but I I I like this uh this type of characterization of a guy who's who's pretty much a psychopath someone who who likes violence and likes hurting people but he has this uh cutesy side to him as well that makes it just have a dissonance there and yet a dissonance that makes me uh want to see more of it play out in the show to see how they can keep growing this and what different situations they can apply Amos to as a character and how he'll bounce off of other people like I want to know what he will say to Miller yeah I want to see their conversation if they ever get one can you imagine those two striking up a word between each other I think they would get on honestly I think they would be the kind of characters who made up have an argument a punch on and then they're like just good they're like okay and he reminds me I don't mean this as a joke but in the animated Xmen series Wolverine is very serious and his favorite what you mean his favorite person was morph yeah who was a joker and a quipster and a silly guy and he's like morph was the only person who could make me laugh and that's him that's Amos with the doctor guy because them two actors were really vibing off of each other like they haven't shown us too much of these two but I got this feeling of hey Amos is a psychopath he's like a nut job or whatever but like he has a sense of humor he and he was having a smile or two at some of the crazy things the doctor was going to say and I just wanted to focus on those two first because they're the two characters Amos and the doctor or medic shed don't get interrogations and I'm we don't see there we don't see their interrogations and that's what I mean by if this was more of an AB storyline I I reckon we could have seen those I especially would have Lov to have seen shed's interrogation it's great to hear about it but I actually would have liked to have seen it it could have been like kon's interrogation and red dwarf when he's having to explain how the crew came back to life just this absurd over-the-top comedic set piece and can you tell me when you were created can you remember uh 2340 sir very good 2340 now that's in the future isn't it yes sir I was created after you died lovely lovely so I died uh and you were created and how long would you say I've been dead Al together oh you're not dead anymore sir H with those two characters it's not so much about their experience in the interrogation but their responses to it so we see that we see the medic freaking out and admitting that he faked his medical training yeah he's he's a Crim on the run from some uh some gangsters and so he's hiding here heck even to your point he's not even just flipping out like he was about suffocating in the previous episode but here he even makes a joke about his interrogation like he treats it like a joke he's to that point of giddiness and nervousness where it's turned around to being humorous to him but you're going to say and then it's sort of I guess like he's the one that's like okay let's just flip on Naomi um and of course the puppy dog comes to the
effects no [ __ ] way they're going to tell us all this [ __ ] we're not going to play by their rules we're going to we're going to fight cuz it's the right thing to do I will defend I will defend my lover um and the other one's like [ __ ] all of you yeah uh it gets me out Al I'm [ __ ] doing it [ __ ] yeah they're turning against each other I think it's it's good to note down that uh I think it's Holden or Alex somebody uh does point out that nobody knows anything about Amos we don't know anything anything about each other well you get the feeling that through interactions they do but Amos is this figure who is detached from emotion so it's hard to read him and since we didn't see his interrogation since we didn't see what Mars had on him he is still left vague to us the audience and I that's deliberate that is deliberate they pointed out in the scene that we the audience as well as the characters in the scene don't know you we don't know what you are about we don't know your history and obviously I would imagine they're going to slowly give us that in the show and then Alex of course uh who's quickly rising to be one of my favorite characters honestly he's he's in my top three for sure he's I think he's number two uh we had a brilliant piece of uh of uh uh just unveiling his story when they are taken aboard and the Martians are iding them they're just going up to their necks and beeping them beep beep beep and he has a different sounding beep yep and none of the other characters react except for the guy who's scanning him and he gives him this look of holy [ __ ] and I knew from that I I I I knew immediately I knew I was like oh he's Martian but I didn't realize I mean I knew he was Martian but I guess I didn't realize straight off about what his story was going to be in terms of he was previously a martian Soldier or somebody who served and so when we get that opening when we get that scene where Holden after his interrogation opens up the door and there's Alex in a full uniform zipping it up I had this moment of oh oh okay you're this level and I I did and I'm still not too sure I was I had this thing of oh is he's he's selling them out huh he's selling them out and he gives his back story and uh what's his backstory Rachel and uh do you believe it he ran with the Maran Navy for 20 years and then he was honorably discharged and now he went off into space to do what he's doing now do you believe that yes and no I think that there's more to it but I think he ended up with an honorable discharge I think some shady [ __ ] is behind that I don't think it's going to be like he served in the general Navy for 20 years and he just left cuz anybody who serves that
long I feel like would stay if they could yeah or would have left earlier like maybe a traumatic event happened and or there's going to be maybe additional information given about his rank as well yeah I'm curious of how high ranking he was and what exactly he got up to in the past because Earth and Mars have their military forces and they've been in a cold War for a very long time but has there ever been like an out andout conflict between the two who had always been like this I'm a bit Shady on that outside of having to deal with maybe perhaps very minor minor skirmishes and the OPA Shenanigans what does 20 years in the Martian Navy actually look like other than flying in a ship border uh guarding your borders and looking angry while you do it you know what I'm saying by that like what type of thing could make him uh leave this line of work and go into are is now cuz I'm thinking oh maybe had like some traumatic War event but I'm like what war yeah you know like yeah it my theory because TV shows MH that he's going to be ex special up in some way and or have a powerful family and he tried to walk away from that and that's how he got the honorable discharge I I'm curious of what his his uh his background is but what did you think about how his character changed during this story because he's been the affable kind of funny guy really relaxed pilot who talks to the ship and listens to music and now he's wearing the uniform and he's trying to throw protocols and regiment these guys and he even turns around and has real vital toward towards Holden like he takes everything Mars tells him at face value and understands it as truth and he turns on Holden because he got dishonorably discharged which is the ultimate sin of an officer in his eyes like I thought that was a like a really great dramatic turn and it wasn't even spent on like they didn't spend too much time on it but again that actor just really knows how to deliver that where he just like you got dishonorably discharged like I got honorably discharged don't you [ __ ] talk to me what did you think about just Alex's characterization having been flipped around here yeah I kind of appreciate it the the way that the actor is embodied to that shift as well as what is being said it it's a very interesting Dynamic to play with so you're helping there Chief settle down they let me clean up out of respect respect yeah you see I served and I was honorably discharged there's a hell of a lot more than I can say about you Cowboy we get to know well we we don't get to know but we have some ideas of Naomi's story because the real uh the real turning of the screw here in terms of paranoia in terms of breaking them down in about Naomi they want them all to flip on Naomi specifically Holden they want Holden to do an announcement because he was the one who sent out the announcement saying that Mars had blown up the Canter bre so they need him to be a face to legitimize that Mars is innocent that's another reason actually I like the Martian approach to what they're doing here because it's very logical I just don't think that it's good morally good no but the logic there is who cares about doing the morally good thing if we can prevent a war we'll do what we have to if us manipulating this situation and violating like these like five people's humans right human rights but it stops us from going to war and it saved millions of lives it's Justified we see in the UN Story the similar thought process of hey if I screw over a couple one person or just a couple of people to stop a greater evil from uh happening then it's all worth it I win win at any cost and this is how the Martians are approaching it because with Naomi she could be Opa she could be Opa she has the background she has the whereabouts she has the knowledge she has expertise that is far beyond what she should be so why is she here but almost everybody else on the canterburry is also like that is overqualified if IED to be on a rust bucket like the canterberry so it's not that unusual in the context because a lot of the people in the crew are trying to build up their lives or build new ones or run away from something and that like that's why they're all there like Holden's running away from something so is Naomi so was the girlfriend mhm so it's not that shocking that that she's got these qualifications it's just like well if you look at Holden's experience it doesn't make sense for him to be there either and they also use that to turn everyone against each other that's the thing about interrogation like this they're in here with an agenda their agenda is we need to make these people flip their testimonies to support us and so the easy candidate is Naomi to be the one to pin it all on she's a Belta she's from this area she calls them out on that it's just plain simple bigotry at its core but they're using it because it's the easiest option because what are they going to do they're going to say that what Alex is the OPA guy that would reflect badly on Mars because he's a former officer even though realistically why couldn't he be he's a high ranking or at least somebody with respect who's now a iceh holder pilot like they don't they don't Grill him about that it doesn't seem but they're grilling her about her qualifications about her background and why she here doing this and it's like the only reason is you to their advantage you fit the bill to be someone to blame and if we use you like this it will be easy for them to turn against you and we can solve this it's also a process of elimination right it's just like well we can't let it be Alex because he has an association with Mars so doesn't make sense to pin it on him we need Holden to be the one that says it m so it can't be him because then it'll just look like we're forcing him to do it also he's a former Earth officer and we don't want to get Earth into bad water here so it's too risky it doesn't work the medic if they check into him he's already disreputable um and incompetent he's too incompetent to do any of this stuff mhm and he has ties to Earth not ties to the belt because they want to pin it on the belt so that it takes away from the tension between Earth and Mars so they are like they're only left with Naomi and I think it's a really skillful thing that the script does that it gives you of that information without Exposition dumps I really enjoyed how they did that I I thought that this was we see the expansi is improving upon itself as it goes along it's getting cleaner with giving us information it's getting cleaner with giving us themes ideas World building and characters motivations and uh it's just so much more palat to me and we're only three episodes in and this is the first season which is often the dry season for these type of shows where Holden is this guy that we get a whole bunch of information about him and I actually found it intriguing I've given Holden a lot of [ __ ] but I found this intriguing he's he's a what would you say he's he's an IVF baby he's a genetically engineered guy he says like he has all of his different parents this one gated him he this makeup like I don't know the extent that they're playing with that or ta right off right even then his existence is just like a sham of an existence he he he doesn't I think for me it adds to the fact that Holden doesn't belong anywhere or to anyone that's a great way to to look at it because yeah he served in the in the uh Earth mil military got kicked out cuz he tried to punch a superior officer I like that he corrects him hey it was an attempt I I missed and I broke my hand on the bulkhead so please let's get the the facts right if we're going to lay them out on the table here and I've given him some crap of for being protagonist man and it's still here he's protagonist man of course he has this backstory of course he used to be in the military and he was a young shot Hot Shot kind of guy I how old is he like I can't tell with this guy because he has he does have a baby face even though he is facial hair which usually makes you a bit older I can't you know I'll give it to this actor he throws me for a loop because 30s 30s okay I he throws me for a loop this guy because when he's got like you know his usual outfit on he looks like a scrawny guy like he he's very lean and kind of lanky but then when we see him with his shirt off he's [ __ ] ripped and jacked and he looks like he could beat you up in a real fight but here when you see him in like a room like this I'm like I'll leave this scrawny smart mouth alone he's he's just a doofus you you can't grill him on anything and I'm just finding my way with with him I I'm bit warm to him like you were last episode where it's like look I want to give him a chance and him being up in arms about Naomi potentially being Opa I thought was well played and how she gave him that look of hey hey hey mister don't don't you don't you get a h mind on me you're the reason we're here by the way like she didn't have to say that it's just that information is already known and that really put him in his place I'm a sucker for seeing Holden get put in his place and he steps up to the occasion he he's an odd character because he's this isn't an unusual configuration for a character because it creates a lot of internal
conflict and that sort of he has this dichotomy within himself of being righteous and wanting to be valueless mhm it's a Mal Reynolds character where they want to come across as Devil May ha apathetic hey golly G I don't want to get involved too heavily but they get overwhelmed by their moral hell hell Mar Reynolds used to be a soldier too and they get overwhelmed by their moral responsibility and their virtuousness even though they pretend like they don't have it so that's why at the end Holden sees all of this spinning out of control and says okay okay take me in guys I'll talk to the captain and I'll I'll just admit to whatever you want I'll just sign over it all and see what the situation is at hand and and we can get this wrapped up because that's the type of character mold he is like do you think that's a factor into why Holden isn't connecting with you because a lot of sci-fi leads do have that that golly G I don't want to get involved I'm just a handsome Rogue but really I have morals I have a heart of gold but you you just have to get to know me I want to hide it cuz it's a vulnerability you stopped me from chasing that the ship that killed the can why because you were being a reckless idiot yeah or was it because they were friends of yours watch your mouth and you no one knows anything about you except you do whatever she says so what was my big plan huh to sit on a [ __ ] bucket like the camp for 5 years while all of this got set up Holden gets dragged [ __ ] to where the captain is and she just lays it out we didn't fire on you why are you telling everyone that we did this to you how how could you say that what's really happening is some mysterious ship that's been following us since we took you aboard clearly did it but take our word for it we well she shows him a little graph that has it there like don't you see that oh she could be G sliding him Brian you know the grafts can be fake right fake especially in the future no but what what is brilliant about this is we know it's true because of what's going on with Earth but Holden doesn't know that and he is like you where he is in disbelief he's not too sure what to believe and he even spins it around of being like well why wouldn't it be you guys like from what I saw from what we've gathered it could easily be you and but the thing is the captain still wants to pin it on the OPA and pin it on Naomi I do think that Mars would would have just killed them if he hadn't sent out that message I do believe that you do it's kind of a hard thing to to say because they're reacting so negatively towards these guys because they sent out this message because this crew standing on their ship sent out a message to the entire galaxy saying Mars has basically declared war on the belts and Mars sitting here with their hands tied going what the [ __ ] we didn't do that and we even see how it impacts the people on Series where the they're rioting and attacking the Mars stuff here so that's what I really like about I think it has it has caused a substantial level of distress and distrust but I just because of the way that Mars operates they don't feel like the kind that take prisoners that do rescue missions it just doesn't feel like something that they would do I just think that I I'm not there 100% yet because they they haven't shown that enough but they're definitely a hyper militarized group they're definitely a Russia they're definitely a China they're definitely a North Korea type where it's like you [ __ ] with us and we will royally you but it's also if you have no value to us your life has no value that's an assumption that I'm making but now knowing that Alex is a martian if they didn't send the message he may convin he may have been able to convince them to leave them alone but also because ma is so isolated I have trouble believing that they would just drop them off at series they also are uh just throughout these three episodes Mars has been spat in the face several times by each factor by each faction I should say the OPA are clearly using them or at least they believe they're being used as Rules by the OPA Earth in the meantime has ruffled their feathers and made them accidentally reveal State secrets and secret weapons places and the belt they've got these guys right here who have screwed them over so they're up in arms about it and I just want to ask you in terms of the the Revelation that is here when the captain talks to holding about this ship that's chasing them as well as it paired up with what's going on on Earth how do you feel about this ship is not a Mars stealth ship how do you feel about just that reveal in the story because we were debating this in previous discussions about if this is Mars or not
yeah I don't have an answer cuz I don't have an answer I don't really know what I think because everything's still up in the air I am intrigued to see how long it takes to get an answer of who sh is this is it going to be in a couple of episodes or is it going to be oh across into like the next season or more of who has this who's capable of this and what do they want cuz everybody has their own grift happening they are definitely hammering in the nails that the OPA is behind all of this Mars is hammering that in Earth is doing so and same with uh series very much tightening on the notion Mars isn't it Earth is isn't it and so it must be the OPA and as somebody who has just watched television before that gives me some theories as to what could be going on most likely it isn't the OPA cuz if the show is telling you in episode 3 it is the OPA without actually specifically giving us evidence of such I raised my eyebrows and go uhhuh okay it's probably someone else then oh yeah I didn't even stop to think about that I just went it's going to be a fourth group mhm or yeah or or or maybe something else that we have already seen but haven't considered and so I just wanted to mention that because the show clearly is is grabbing Us by the nose and trying to lead us down a certain path so that they can surprise us or reward us as well I I I do appreciate that though lots of things have changed Earth is a flooded
Wasteland the UN as an organization is still
antiwar yes they don't want a war not for the idealistic reasons that the modern un would say that they don't want war thank you but they still acknowledge that
peace even if it isn't genuine piece it's just a cold war is better than an out andout conflict You could argue it's still like the modern UN in terms of bureaucratic administrative uh distance from real life harm where oh all of this terrible stuff is going out going on out there at the belt ah we really wish we could do something about that maybe send a care package oh man we really really can't get that forward here I mean it's too much to try and transport like we have this water but maybe it's not safe water so we would have to do all of these things to it and maybe freeze it work that's work and who wants to do that oh oh we we don't have the money for that there's a budget and the chairman you know the Secretary General just can't can't shift those things around we've got to worry about what's happening on the moon beyond our control and I I I they got me because after the previous episode I I and then being revealed at the start of this one that Holden's message did get out to the rest of the Universe I thought that they were going to lean into more of an overt offensive position against Mars I I really thought that I thought okay they've shown us that the UN is this group in what they did is more interesting what they did is more interesting and more honest as well because you have the military come in and just say there's not enough evidence there's not enough evidence to support any type of military maneuver it would be foolish to go off of what we have and we don't want to be fools and we don't want to start a war and make us look like the bad guys and to lose lives and that makes sense and the uh uh the other guy Aaron right I wanted to call him taka he's just saying they going okay makes sense and Christian is the one who's made to look like the the villainous character the war mongerer but also they've positioned her as our point of view character where there's there's a mixture of she looks like that but also we understand that perhaps she's the woman who sees the obvious things going on that the UN is closing their eyes to it feels like she's somebody who sees not the big picture that the UN wants to see but she sees the whole board she's definitely somebody who comes across as the woman who sees what's really going on and the others aren't attuned to that and so they must listen to her they must do it her way and so when they say we're not going to do it your way Christian we're not going to do it like that we're going to sit back and evaluate what's going on perhaps even open up a dialogue with Mars perhaps wouldn't that be a crazy thing to do and instead of going into this with guns blazing and even saying to Mars we know this stuff and we're angry with you we're going to be politicians we're going to be calm and collected and keep our cards close to our chest and see what happens and that there was gold to me I I I really could watch this as a show that part so much your thing it's ridiculous Sirus is our station the key to the belt with those resources Mars could finally cut the cord to a if you want to war with Mars this will get you one but it's my soldiers that will end up dying for it well Secretary General wants a plan of action Admiral and it can't be let's just sit and wait unless we have proof that's exactly what we should be doing what I was thinking about when I uh before we recorded before we sat down to record this was how each story is complimenting each other so Mars is trying to prevent a war so they are manipulating this crew of people to stop this from happening Christian wants to pre well she actually wants to seemingly start a war but she also wants to stop a she wants to make sure this gets cut off before anything happens so she manipulates an old friend and a powerful P person and ruins his life to do this and then Miller he is actually interacting with someone who wants to start a war like each one of them is complimenting each other and also on the rest of the station we have them trying to control a group of people there's the riots MH as well where they're trying to calm down this escalating situation it was real uh thing that tied remember the C together for me was how each one of the things we're cutting away to was commenting on the previous one in such a way and that to me we talk about serialized stories right we talk about how there's a lack of that a self-contained nature or a beginning middle and end and I really do think that remember the C has the best of both worlds when it comes to this where it's clearly building up the tension laying out the world telling us about things to come and getting us intrigued to watch more but there was a real beginning middle and end to this one yes there was a real sense of here is us as writers this is what we want to do in remember the can't these are the themes these are the character beats these are the arcs these are the messages and we're going to do it in the 45 minutes where honestly I could have just watched this one on its own and I could sit back and go that was a pretty that was a great episode of little science fiction show without having to have that asterisk next to it of I can't say that yet until I've watched the full season which has been the complaint we have had with the previous two episodes where it's like they're good episodes in this nebulous it's part of larger story way but this one here I think it really Nails it in terms of just letting me go no that's just that is a solid piece of television and when it comes to uh Christian's story she is a part of that factor of joy for me where we get to see her do the political wheeling and dealing and pretend to be a human being because every single moment she has of coming across like a real person like a a nice person a a human being with empathy she has towards this old friend of hers it will quickly at the end of it there will just be an expression on her face or body language or the way she turns or a certain phrase she uses where you go oh she's playing him she's playing him and she's playing a version of a person so that she can get what she wants or she can Cain information what do you think about Christian in this episode because they are evolving her as a character and they do want to have it that way of she's a person but she's always got an angle to play it's fascinating and I don't feel like I can add much more to what you just said cuz it's just like yep yeah she she is all of those things and it she is a character that I am very intently watching could you go into some more detail about what she is getting up to in this episode and some of the scenes some of the moments that you liked when it came to her well we've touched on the meeting that she has with not terer Aaron Wright Aaron right that's it yeah maybe one day I'll think of is that and then the sort of Admiral that's there the Army dude it's just like no I'm not setting people off to die cuz you have a hunch basically um that was a very strong scene for me because it does show those different perspectives but I think the Highlight is the you'll do anything to win monologue from the Ambassador Ambassador the Martian Ambassador who's now been banned from Mars he has to sell his house him and his uh him and his partner him and his husband have to sell their house she ruined their life because yeah her storyline is oh I'll say to this guy who I know personally I'll slip him the information the information the UN doesn't want out there knowing that this guy's a sentimentalist knowing that this guy is a lover of Mars has an appreciation for them knowing that he is that he'll leak it back to Mars and we can monitor them we can track them and we can see what they're really hiding she she has this veneer of oh I'm a lovely old friend don't you remember these wonderful times look I brought you a bottle of wine remember your bottle of wine let's have a dinner at my house and you and your husband can like your husband and mine can go out and play a game of cricket cuz I like your husband more than I like you yeah um yeah when he when she brings the wine at the end like here here you go was worth it I I I royally screwed you over and I've destroyed your life but here's some wine and we stopped a war perhaps and isn't that isn't that worth it in the end and what a piece of [ __ ] yeah I the show is doing a lot with the idea of the the cost to the individual compared to the cost of to the community yeah es especially this one especially hers yeah but even on a grander scale the cost of the belt as an individual part of humanity compared to the cost of humanity as a whole with with with Miller with Christian and even to a certain extent Holden they obviously care about their people where they're from but they're all characters who are at a distance at this certain plane of existence where they are so detached from that at the same time where clearly Christian has Christian has this really well-rounded understandable View for the audience of what she stand stands for and how she really wants to protect Earth but she does it in ways where he says it you are dangerous you are frightening you will do anything it takes to win and that's what you got got your father killed and I don't want to play this game anymore I won't play with you again I won't play with you and she said it like oh perhaps this you know this could have stopped a war you Christian doing this could have made a war happened in the first place it was a gamble yeah you just wanted the answer you didn't want to have to wait and during that scene where the UN is finding out about Mars's secret military hubs that they have a few more than they originally knew of she turns around and is very cocky about how this was all her she takes credit for it oh I did this she just says straight to their faces I did the opposite of what you wanted but it worked out that's a part of why she did it too is this sense of e this massive ego this this person who must be right who must have them their actions validated because she never has admitted that she's wrong not when she got reprimanded Fair uh keep torturing that guy yeah keeping the Courier out of the tank him dying on the way to the Luna base mhm every single decision including [ __ ] over her friend or like somebody who thought they were friends they were friends is defendable in her eyes mhm everything has a justification and a reasoning behind it but for it is acceptable I I judged it my judgment is infallable thus my theory like because I am justified and I Justified it m M it must be justified she there's a sort of circular logic to it of I'm doing this because of my principles my principles say that this is okay so it's okay that I do it it it just feeds in on itself he breaks it down where she watched them play the game she was lurking she was watching she never participated and then when she did even though she had studied it and she knows how it all works she flipped it into her own game where she could win yep and outdo everybody and she gambles show was perfect what really makes the arc here is she thinks she's infallible she thinks that she's this perfect being with great judgment and people should listen to her not just listen but appreciate her he says no and walks off and she's left there defeated in the end she's left there alone she's left there realizing just for a moment what she did was wrong that may not stop her in the series to come but in terms of this episode she's left on a sour note as a character she's left there to ruminate on what she's done I was terrified for you I didn't know why and now I do you will do anything to win just like your father
that's what got him killed I won't play with you ever again series is falling apart due to the Revelation that the people that were bringing them water has been destroyed that the C has been shot at and blown out of the sky by Mars and we see throughout the 45 minutes or so slow slly but surely the society turned violent and even though it was not the strictest emphasis of the episode I thought they actually did this really well yep you see the police at the beginning getting organized for how this is going to spin out of control there's this there's this stress to all of the police we need control but we can't aggravate and you're going to be teamed up with this person you're going to work these shifts you're going to do these things uh havlock who's a character that sucks he at the beginning we find out is uh not seeing this sex worker for anything nefarious because of course not he's a good boy seeing her for sex work as a sex worker for sex would not be nefarious either no I thought he had in my discussion last episode I thought he was doing something criminal with her I thought he was doing something more duplicitous or something on the slide but no what he's doing is cuz he's a good boy but this does relate to thee trying to learn the Belta language he's trying to learn the Belta language to pacify to to alleviate and that's the thing is it's useless so you can bridge the gap between them and have a beautiful understanding the Jean rotenberry future of we can talk it out we can be if I learn your culture and you learn mine then we'll be one won't it be great if we're unified oh yeah it's even greater that he gets stabbed through the chest and left on a wall but he's impaled he's impaled but people can lose a limb and survive yeah but it's like right in the center of his chest is just left there to hang yeah so we're assuming that he's dead oh I hope so he sucks doesn't he suck isn't he like the worst character in the show as much as [ __ ] I give Holden at least I like I can say Holden's a character yeah this guy's just like a war he's like an NPC like is he okay real real talk is he there just so Miller has someone to talk to yes yes well the lady's there too and she's a better character yeah but she's not a point of view character no and we needed an earther out on the Belt yeah that is that is very much it he is there to help guide us into the world and look if he dies here it actually is very cynical because oh he he was here for the first three or four episodes of the show practical yeah but very mechanical of we need the character to use as this function and when that function is no longer needed throw them away because they serve their purpose it really is a reminder that as well as this show is getting with developing its world and characters there are some elements that are clearly just plug and play and look egg will be on my face if this guy becomes like a major occurring character and he becomes fleshed out I'll admit to my egg on the face there but at this moment we're left to think that he's dead and I'm sitting there going oh that would actually make sense if he died right now because he's done he he helped us understand who Miller is and what sirious station is and now he's done we don't need him anymore especially by contrast Yeah Yeah Yeah by contrast he's naive and innocent and the world is Harsh and cruel we yeah yeah we we get it where are you with Miller right now how do you feel about him as a character cuz you and I have been giving him uh thumb down a lot it's still a thumbs down yeah yeah could you could you explain why he's not working cuz they give him a lot to do in the episode yes
and he's the character that I care about the least I'm like if you die somebody else will just replace you okay you find him an Expendable character character kind of like how I said about havlock this Expendable guy like once you serve your function they can get rid of you and I won't miss you or think about you in the most grandio way uh not exactly like he has a unique skill set but he still feels a bit Plug and Play of it's the cop that's dirty but gets the job done so it doesn't feel like it would be that hard to write another character that was like that and would fill that spot if something happened to him he doesn't feel as unique as Christian does or Naomi or a Amos like Holden is a bit like that Miller is even more lacking in that area I mean yeah I've here's here's what I'll say about it I liked it a lot more than last episode cuz Miller was given an actual plot worth watching this time it was back to the Julie MA case it was boosted by what happened with the scopuli and how that information has got out pushed forward and he's and he has a motivation now to do the case rather than just pretty girl gone missing now he has a motivation of they've taken the case away now I want to do the case and I'm going to shaft my responsibilities to do it I'm playing a dangerous game literally everyone around me is fighting each other and I don't care because I'm on the case that there is a better way to play the character than what they were doing in the previous two episodes but my thing is I don't care about him either when I think about him but when I watch the episode I'm I'm invested and it's down to that performance I think Thomas Jane is a captivating screen presence he he knows how to play this role with ease there's never any doubt that he is this guy to me no he he embodies the character as an actor but I still just don't care about the character that's it he's a character where I need more from the writing it's not the performance it's the writing here and he's one that to me is he's better to a little bit better each episode The more we see him interact with the world but it still falls on cliches trappings of the genre of detective and Noah smashing the speaker yeah it I was like oh God come on the moments I liked from him were the smaller touches such as him leaving his shift and the female cop is like okay you go do this thing or whatever and he just gives like a a wave to her like he's walking away he doesn't even look at her Andes like this joov little bye-bye I'm off now cover me for an hour and he just doesn't go back yeah he's gone for the rest of the day pretty much or or when uh the guy what was it threw a bottle or something towards her and then ran off and she's like oh you're not going to get after him it's like not my case yours just those are the moments that I warmed to him but I I I I he's a character that like I say the best way to describe him is I enjoy him when I'm watching the show but not outside of that like I don't want to really talk about him I don't really want to talk about his plot I don't really want to think about it I don't really want to think think about it outside of me watching the show because as you say it is very standard it is very you are you know what this is since the Inception of Television this character has existed since the beginning of TV we've had the guy with the hat walking around asking questions and detective silence what look if he was secretly has a heart he needs be funnyer that's the thing Humphrey bogot as Sam Spade is really funny he has so many great on liners he slaps Peter lri it's really funny or Idris Elba as Luther really funny really funny like amusing and Miller just doesn't have any humor to him really really it's not really there it's it's very telling the things that you mention that you liked were the funny bits I don't Susa nothing I don't Susa that Opa Tad on your forearm there either is that just part of your plumage why don't you look around see what you can find for me he is described by Anderson dors the head of the OPA and again Miller's plot out of the three is the most labored when it comes to hitting us with obvious messaging and themes and it's better in this one than it was in the last but it's still an issue you have Anderson doors says what he is underneath that silly hat of yours there's a belter crying out to be free that's his character that's Miller's character we got it we know this he's a guy that wants like who pretends who wears the image of an earther the the better people but underneath it he's the man who's a who's a belter who wants Freedom who wants his people to be equal and this is his way of doing that there's inner he wants he wants a piece of it he wants to be like them but he knows that he's not he knows that he doesn't belong there so he puts on the hat he puts on the suit he puts on this voice to distance himself from his own heart and I got it every detective has their Sad Sack story like that and they work I like detective stories I like Noir I like these things but it's just something about Miller's side of this is just the writers struggle to really communicate this with subtlety there is nuances though and there is Brilliance in Miller's story like like I said I did actually enjoy this I I wanted more time dedicated to it because once he is cracking onto the case and he's busting heads and he meets the OPA I was in what does OPA stand for I don't think they've told us okay I don't think they said it out loud that I was an idiot and we knew cuz I keep on thinking that and I'm like oh they must say it soon another thing about ser another thing about series is they're for the OPA the OPA have a residency there and the police don't mess with them no that was another angle as well if I had to guess I would imagine there's something like planetary Alliance of some sort because they make it outer probably because they make it a point that they're a group that is spread throughout the outer regions of space and that they are like a coalition of force but I don't want to Google I don't want to risk no spoilers no spoilers but Anderson dors is the head of this particular section of the OPA in all in all honesty for the basic functions of the story he is the head of the OPA right he's the head guy and Jared Harris delightful delightful every single line was a joy brilliant accent yeah Africans mixed with a little bit of British and American in there a real like a real Mongrel accent going on there just a hybrid of things he's traveled around in a deliberate kind of way not in a messy sort of way it's not like he's changing in between those accents it is a blend of them which is so impressive he's a skilled actor he's one of my favorites I've loved him since uh I don't know if this is the highest of things to raise but ever since that second Sherlock Holmes movie where he played maratti he's been on my watch list I I just have been drawn to that actor I really loved him in that movie and everything I've watched him in since he's he's always hit it out of the park and Anderson dors is a really uh cool character because he's playing an angle he's like Christian where everything is a game to be won he hears Miller's case he goes oh you're looking for Julie Mau he clearly knows who Julie Mau is but he's playing it off like he doesn't and he's playing like this fake emotion oh don't say that I'll get choked up and what he's doing is he's he's pedling his stuff he's he's he's greasing the wheels he's trying to get Miller to side with the OPA maybe even recruit him to the OPA and it's a scene that gives us a lot without saying too much that's also why I was drawn to it out of the Miller side of the story is there's lots of subtext going on here there's lots of things underneath the table that they're playing with rather than just laying all the cards out in front of it's a very tense scene for what is is not being said and uh when it comes to the OPA they are very much emphasized in the episode I just want to just go through them a bit more in terms of your feelings on them and just your understanding of how they operate in this show now because in the first two episodes they very much left it blank even now you're like what's the initial stand for but we get a bit more of an ideology to them in this one yeah they're definitely they're presented in an interesting way and for me as an Australia okay who does know some history who does know some American history they read like in a very similar way to Black Panthers yeah I could see that because they're a outlandish group who some are supporters of believe in the cause and believe in the way that they're going about the cause you can see why it exists there are also others that label them terrorists and the truth probably lies somewhere in the gray mhm that's what I think of when I'm when I'm trying to kind of think of how what is the OPA and what do they mean so it's like the our insiders want change they want their group to be represented and to be treated fairly and they're not getting that so they're willing to go outside of acceptable or moral ways to do it violence because that's the option that they think will work or that's the last option that they feel like they have they are an organization like you said with the black panthers say or like I said previously the IRA where you can see why they exist what they're fighting for you can even have a somewhat sympathetic Edge to it because they're fighting against civil unrest and they are fighting against discrimination and for freedom but they have crossed over a certain line where you can no longer support that group that organization because because they're terrorists because they're bombing they're shooting they're killing they're they're harming Innocents in order to get their message across and it's very gray and very murky and I really liked how he came in as Mr no don't hurt this guy we aren't for violence remember everyone we're friends and we' got to motivate each other through understanding if violence is needed then we must of course do it but please and then when he's talking to Miller he's very much no violence is the answer we must do it because it is our way and it will get what we need to happen and so there's that Two-Face nature to Anderson dors and I I'm excited to see more of this character uh he's instantly made Miller more interesting because also Miller being the gruff the rules of the rules typ guy but also I don't give a [ __ ] about the rules interacting with someone like Anderson dors makes Miller a more interesting character than having him chat with havlock just just this particular uh uh pairing is far more intriguing to me as a viewer I think they're under that ridiculous hat there's a belter yearning to find his way home Patron St of Las car is all choked up we've reached this point where we remember the C of course we remember the C how could you ever forget the C Rachel never forget but on our rating system of yum being bad and yum yum being good to honor the moment of yum yum where do you fall on remember the can't no half yums we're very binary in this way yum yum yum yum it's more good than bad it's delivering on things that it's said up I'm more interested in the characters now than I was at the start of the episode it was successful in its structure on an episode level but also on a season level I have no major gripes like anything that I have a problem with I'm like I'm okay with this for now I might change my mind depending on what happens in the future but for now I'm like Yep this is the growing pains era of a series where you are having to get a set everything from scratch they're having to do that and you are as well I I'm must admit that I loved this episode a lot more than the other two but there were moments where I glazed over a bit or was overwhelmed with information and just the the new terrain I'm exploring but I give this a yum yum yum yum I thought this was the first episode I would describe as actually good the last one I gave a yum yum to I gave it a soft yum yum but this here is unabashedly a great episode of Television especially for a first season it was very good it was coherent it was exciting I wanted to hang out with these characters more get to know them more and the biggest compliment is I want to watch the next episode right now I don't want to have to wait another week to talk about it and watch it I just want to do it right now so that is where we fall on on remember the can't now we've already gone through some of our overall predictions for things to come down the road or theories and thoughts on things so I don't have anything else to add to that but I would love to know what the the title of the next episode is if you have that in front of you C QB CQB no dot or dashes in between just see QB what do you think it could be what do you think this episode has in store for us if you had to guess what would you logically do to follow up this one with um well there has to be um I guess addressing Holden being held on the Mars ship I feel that needs to be addressed by Earth directly if they know he's on there yeah yeah like I feel like something needs to happen with that um or like need the something else will move forward with Mars's push to get Halon to do another video saying that it's it's it's not M totally wrong totally wrong not Mars my bad take back SE why is he blinking in Morse code like that he's blinking it is them weird but his words are saying it isn't I want um there to be something with the wreck of the scopuli I want to go back there I don't I don't know if we will I don't think we will um but I'm interested to go back there because we haven't played around been there since we saw Julie yeah we don't know we that's another thing I wonder if this will be an episode where we actually get to see anything of Julie more so because the first episode did play it as a format of we could cut to her and have a weird thing going on we don't understand but they haven't gone back to that formula I'm thinking that the next episode is going to be the the Martian ship playing a cat and mouse game almost like balance Star Trek the Original Series balance of ter Terror with this unknown stealth ship that's chasing them I think it could be a cat and mouse between these two and what I want to know is if havlock is dead if he actually is dead or if he's at least severely injured how the the the the the the security how the the police are going to react to that because it is not only one of theirs that has been hurt Andor killed but he's also an earther so this could launch into an even greater fullon martial law p they going to try and cover it up are they going to yeah who who who knows and are they going to try and go after those guys or or or not I I'm I'm I'm wanting to see how the Powder Keg here is going to explode even more because it's already falling apart and also we didn't say it uh I'm hoping to see those Mormons next episode random do the comedy night they randomly threw in this Mormon thing it didn't add anything to the episode other than that was a weird little moment this must come back later survive [ __ ] Mormons make it to space no awful awful they think they get their own Planet yeah sure sure great thank you some moment I should some I look I don't know enough about Mormons don't want to know anymore but if you want to fascinating no don't say fascinating in a screwed up way yeah probably right Mormons Mormons are weird but um sorry if you're a Mormon and I've offended you um what can I say other than I'm not sorry so if you want to find us on social media you can under yum yum pod or yum yum podcast where can people email us at Rachel if they want to converse with us yumyum gmail.com we have our patreon where we give these episodes over to the patrons first as well as so much other content and even a group Discord that you can be a part of so if you want to support the podcast or if you're just wanting to uh consume all of our thoughts uh that we've gone through with the expanse right now you can head over to to Yum Yum podcast on patreon all of this is included in the description below uh spread the word around to all of your friends tell them hey there's this Australian couple who are watching the expanse for the first time and they have some pretty cooky Notions you should check them out let people know that we're here and that we're talking about science fiction TV check out some of our other discussions on other sci-fi shows uh but that is all we have for you thank you all so much for listening Rachel r Rachel raie thank you so much for sitting down and chatting with me having to watch the expense having to explore it with me and guess who came back this episode that random preacher Guy the one who the right go he came back we didn't say that explicitly oh no I refer to his speaker getting smashed by Miller though that's right his speaker got smashed and I was so happy to see him that's that's my final that's my final statement I'm happy to see that guy does he have a name will we learn it don't know but I'm happy to see
him see you then well
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