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We are just your average married couple who love watching and talking about science-fiction television. The Expanse is the series we’re talking about and one we’re watching through for the first time! Listen to us break down episodes of The Expanse and see if it’s as good as everyone says it is. Exploring The Expanse is released to our Patreon first and so if you want to hear more of our discussions then come over and support the podcast.
This week we’re exploring The Expanse episode “Windmills”
It’s time to unleash the blue goo!
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[Music]
hi Ryan hello Rachel how are you I'm feeling pretty content that's nice and I'm ready to make some content with you Rachel mhm I knew I had that planned out and I and I had in my mind I'm flipping a coin of whether Rachel will find that amusing or she'll be annoyed and she gave me an annoyed face so that means she loved it uh Rachel how about you though are you doing well overall oh you can go suck donkey balls no that means I have to turn my ship away from you now and go mind my own business good luck to you my fellow Martian donkey balls but Rachel other than talking about secret Martian codes and how eloquent they are what are we doing doing today we're here to talk about the expanse um and we are bringing the Yum Yum perspective to this sci-fi television show and yum yum was divined from Star Trek Discovery I don't think I use that word correctly no no I felt like it was a religious like experience it was bestowed upon us by the holy Gods at worthy Star Trek Discovery screenwriters yes uh sorry screenwriters came out of my mouth I giggled a bit after saying that Oscar winner Oscar winner Michelle yo was in the scene mhm she posed a question to another individual who was present and she asked hey can you help me kill the antagonist of the season and he you want to you want to and instead of a simple yes or oh I'm looking forward to it this other character who we don't know very well licked her lips sexily this is true flipped her hair back still telling the truth and said yum yum that's the god honest truth that happened and I just really want to emphasize how absurd that is and some people may say well that sounds like light-hearted fun the problem is it tonally Star Trek Discovery is so all over the place everything is so heightened that when a moment like that happens it's it's such Whiplash well say the expans for instance we reference the donkey balls line which is absurd and and delivered with beautiful comic ease from the actor who plays Alex but what I really like about how uh the comedy is used in the expanse is it's used sparingly uh and is there to inject some light levity in a rather dry and serious show while Discovery it is they jam it down your throat with comedy and that is very that's very cringy comedy while the expanse has some cringey comedy in there but uh it's it's very very sporadic and it may get a giggle out of you or may not but uh yeah we're watching through the expanse for the first ever time this is our first time through so if you are experienced with it don't spoil it for us don't tell us anything about upcoming episodes or things that happened in the book that were here or weren't here uhuhuh I'm going to close my eyes and plug up my ears if you start doing that do not spoil the experience for us okay so Rachel what episode of the expanse are we diving into today today we are looking at windmills windmills is that another one of those dong kyote references that this show loves to do is it it is is is Jimmy Holden who I jokingly said in the first episode we would never call him Jim Holden but one day maybe call him Jimmy uh is he like a knight chasing after windmills for a woman that does not really yeah you know what yeah Holden St coyot got it Jimmy liked to think of himself as a knight he thought it was a funny story I never broke it to him that it was a tragedy can we stop with the [ __ ] now oh I had a little left about how Charming your home is Holden and crew realize that they are not alone on their ship and find themselves up against Martian Marine blockade Miller's Dark Night of the Soul no oh oh I weep believing All Is Lost finds a new reason to keep going avasara visits Holden's family in Montana oh man and Holden is here in the episode his mother is here and she was the person who I thought was pretty yum yum uh when I say that yum yum has an inherent sexual connotation so who do who's someone that made me want to lick my lips and go M and Holden's Holden's mother had it because she could stand toet to Toe toet to Toe with the with with our lady from the UN with one of the most powerful people on Earth she doesn't give a [ __ ] if Ava salara is this big dog in the universe here she's she's looking at it going yeah you want to try and [ __ ] me go ahead and do it let's not [ __ ] around oh my I'm getting hot under the collar just thinking about the scenes they had together is there fanfic of those two characters send it to me uh Rachel it can't be spoiled no spoilers though okay just just just you slashfic uh Rachel uh who did you find to be yum yum who did you want to lick your lips flick your hair back and say yum yum over Amos wow I'm shocked what what reason was it this time his brutal honesty those muscles his moral duplicitousness I don't like a man with too many muscles well I didn't make him for you windmills episode seven lucky number seven uh quick fire thoughts on it Rachel tell me yours it was pretty good it was pretty good it was weird because it was such a Slowdown compared to the last episode which was like break neck speed for the whole thing and now we're kind of back at the start of that cycle of setting things up again but it's not setting up the characters just that plot of like we're moving this piece here you know what I mean like instead of feeling like a game of speed chess it just feels like regular chess again uh yeah I enjoyed this one I had a pretty solid time with it I wasn't Blown Away nothing here was uh truly shocking but there were some delightful things uh uh you know Ava salara was walking through the snow that was a great image and she had some really great onliners we learned some interesting pieces of information as well as just uh belief systems of some characters so I found this one to be enriching character-wise the stories were very minimal there's not much to them they they're very basic and boilerplate and Bare Bones but that isn't a negative because I don't need complex storyline in an episode to satisfy me I have said many a times that uh if a story is straightforward and understandable and it serves to emphasize character that's what I prefer so the story with our crew having to evade being caught by martians and looking for a code to get their way out of it wasn't the most uh exhilarating wow a storyline I've ever witnessed but it helped give us many many interactions between characters and lots of moments for us to get to know the crew more and so I like the episode overall now we have mentioned that Holden's mother appears in the episode and so let's look at that side of the story first as it's pretty insular it's on its own um it helps give us a little bit more weight to the actions and reactions of Holden's story but uh we finally get to see chrisen outside of the UN and her house uh wow what an image that is of her in that gorgeous outfit so colorful so vibrant tring her way through the snow I just thought that there was again an arresting visual every episode of the expanse thus far or almost every episode has that one striking image that one piece of business that is going to lingo in your brain after you've watched it and this is a simple one but it's an elegant one nonetheless so uh walk us through what's happening in Chris Jen's story in Ava solara's story and your overall uh impressions on this plot she basically goes there because she's got all of this Intel about Holden but she's not sure how much of a threat he is and if he is a terrorist or he just has bad luck but she doesn't have a feel for Holden so she goes and talks to his mom goes to the little compound in Montana um which has windmills sci-fi windmills mm mhm so the title has multiple meanings one of them literal mhm so she goes there to have a chat with Mama something Mama Halton I like living near the land doesn't make me stupid was he involved of course not he would never oh no wait I know this one my boy was a little angel he never even hurt an insect oh if you'd just seen what a wonderful child he was and I thought we were done with the [ __ ] I I I thought this was such a great way to develop the UN side of this because she has been christien and Earth has been observing everything that's happening they have all of this information but looking at things through a document looking at things through Intel does not always give you a great understanding so on paper Holden is this Enigma of a figure he just keeps going through these tremendous circumstances Fred Johnson went over this a bit in the last episode two of him being the luckiest [ __ ] in the Galaxy so she takes the most direct approach I'll go talk to his mother and through her I will get a feel of his character because he is even through the Intel and through the information she's accured he is such a peculiar aity in these events and the message that he gave does seem like someone who is trying to do the right thing like Holden comes across as a guy who is noble and trying to do good but you cannot deny his presence in so many detrimental events to the Galaxy so she has to get her PE pieces all in a row here and I I liked it because she relates this through her own personal standpoint of why she does things as a mother herself so she goes here to talk to to Holden's mom now I really didn't expect this I didn't even expect to see any of Holden's family they were briefly touched upon in one of the other episodes when he was getting interrogated but to get a a whole storyline where we spend time with his mother and we learn about who he is uh and why he is the way he is I really didn't have that on my bingo card because he comes across so much as the typical protagonist and I didn't think the writers were going to explain any more than they've already done so they've come up with a cool reason I think a pretty cool reason reason as to why he's such a white knight knucklehead and I I found it just exhilarating and makes me a little bit more interested in Holden or makes me reflect back on the scenes we've had with him being such a milk toast guy and go okay the writers were being a little bit more deliberate with that than just he is lead that's what Lee does yeah but I just want to acknowledge something that you said in there of how we got told about his family but you didn't think that that was necessarily going to go anywhere or that we would see them so soon cuz I felt the same way and it's things like that that are really building my trust up in the show of these things are actually going to matter and they're they're going to be paid off uh which is re it's reassuring me Chris Jen avasara has been known to me and I think a bit to you as well just from the reactions we get from the listeners from the people from our patrons uh she's a a very beloved character we've liked her but I I think you can just tell that she's beloved because she's very snarky has all of the quips and the great on liners and we Haven we were done with the [ __ ] and we haven't exper ER that as fully thus far she's had good lines but they've been good philosophical lines and the occasional good quip but she hasn't had those moments to shine as bright but this episode she has a sparring partner she has yeah and I I mean how do you feel about just I guess this uh uh I don't know if evolution is the right word but this this slant on her character where for 90% of the episode she is just saying fire lines of dialogue just just rip roaring ones where you just fist pump and sheer and go yes that's a good line yeah how like how could you not love it it's amazing it's um something that I I love to harp on about but it's greater than the sum of its parts the lines on the page then the actor performance the score that's under underpinning it the direction and the cinematography all working together to elevate it in a way that makes it look easy it's not a labored scene the fact that they make it look effortless when you know that there's so much effort to get all of these pieces in place and working together in the cohesive way that they are it it's it's wonderful and it's wonderful to see her in this context of somebody else's home we've spent a lot of time in her home with her husband and with her grandson we we know what she's like in that environment and we know what she's like when she's in the UN she's torturing people or getting told off for doing various stuff and it's very interesting to see her in this new place navigating this new relationship and the way that she operates and the strategy that she uses throughout the scenes with Holden's mom and the way that she adapts to to suit her opponent of sorts we saw this happen with the Martian Ambassador friend where alite I'll invite you over to my house and we'll drink the wine and they'll go play cricket outside she is very Adept at putting on a friendly human face to achieve the goals in the episode it is underpinned by the fact that she has security flying outside ready to pounce at a moment's notice she isn't just a person who's uh worried about start the a war starting and she's doing her best and she's come here to talk to Holden's mother she is a powerful individual one that brings destruction with her or one that brings Terror along with her just with that floating outside this ominous thing that to the to Holden's mother says we will storm this complex take you in and interrogate you which is completely valid to to look at aara as especially when we meet her in the series she's just interrogating a guy and torturing a guy with little to no care but you see in this and this is why I asked about the snarky thing is the adding a level of humor to her to make it a little bit lighter when you look at her because there's another way you can play this where you have Holden's mother justifiably saying that she's you know awful person why should I speak to you and as a viewer you would naturally agree even though you like the character of Christian you would naturally agree hence sometimes in media they try and lighten those characters up so that it's easier to swallow we are named yum yum podcast because of Star Trek discovery which has Empress georia which is an example of when you do that poorly she's a character that's a genocidal maniac and they give her the sassy quippy fire lines that are embarrassing and not only embarrassing but they detract from the real message and that's why I wanted to just make sure to touch base with this because there are examples of what they're doing here with with Ava salara that has been bad either in the way that George a is or you overuse it and I want to make sure we keep an eye on that because remember when River Song entered Doctor Who she was this breath the fresh air a really wonderful character you couldn't help but be enamored by her even if the episode was crappy and then by a certain point it was like poison taking effect on you when they finally reveal how long the night is on that planet yeah that's for Doctor Who reference there for your kids God I really like how in all of the story lines now even with her in the UN there's this undercurrent of the importance of perspective when it comes to force because she sees it as her security team they're there to protect her but Holden's mom sees it as they're there to attack them and we've seen that over and over again with Mars they see it as security it other people see it as a threat and same with the police on series and it's interesting how they are really exploring with the dimensionality of power dynamics across the Galaxy because like that's also a big part of the OPA is they're trying to get power and take it away from the privileged as they say it and they are seen as terrorists by other people and heroes from from a lot of the bels right correct and it's just a neat way that they're they're continuing to weave that thread throughout the whole universe in more subtle and more over the ways I need to understand your son and what will that accomplish now I have two governments and whatever the hell the OPA calls itself on a course toward a war that your son started I want to stop it before anyone else loses a kid if people were not only able to listen to one another but to see things from the other's uh point of view so much of the conflict uh would be lesser than to see the things through their eyes but also relate it to your own things in life that's the key to it as well it's not just there's so many vales of empathy in this show cuz it's not as simple as she comes here to Holden's mother and goes I'm a mother so I understand what you're going through she tries that tack to begin with and it was false so she had to really dig deep into her own soul and her own past to be able to make any actual traction with the person she was talking to but with her with herself and so we get information about Holden and why he is the way he is and how his mother also forced him down a certain Road and realized unlike Christian she realized what they were doing was wrong and encouraged him to escape this instead of making him into a future leader of their little [ __ ] creepy political group or whatever they've got going on she saw that they were molding him in a way that wasn't right and so she pushed him aside and so when you hear that you can understand why these two characters are talking to one another after a certain point because we have mentioned how Holden as a character himself some of the most unbelievable stuff in the series is why do people keep keep talking to him and or keep giving him what he wants when he is a character so milk toast and vanilla and doesn't have enough to really necessitate people like Fred Johnson allowing him to do this completely Reckless plan well here is an example of two characters one of which we're meeting for the first time where I can say with 100% assuredness behind this I understand why these two continue to talk during the scene and why they open up to one another when at the start that wouldn't have happened during it there's an evolution and Arc of both of these characters during their scenes in the episode and this is why we have to focus on it because it's it's a smaller part of the story here but it really is emphasizing one of the one of the strengths of the series and in turn highlights when they don't always succe eded this it seems like this the build a show Holden's uh life as a child and a young man I found to be very funny because they came up in Universe explanation for why he's such a [ __ ] drip of a guy like why he's such a little doter he comes from a family Co-op which I found to be a very fun term thrown around and before we found found out that information Holden said some line in particular and then we cut to his family uh farm and you leaned over to me and said is he a Mormon because he has this polygamous family thing going on and he has this certain Montana and he has this certain do goody nature to him that you looked at through rightousness a religious prism and it actually made me go why why would you think he's Mormon and you said those reasons and I sat back going if they're going to reveal his Mormon I would be fine with that and what they revealed instead was uh I it's more interesting I thought it to be fascinating but you can definitely see that the he's existence and I I want to hear from you you specifically a bit about already knew about the his genetic background but I was wondering if like on top of the political stuff there was also religious stuff because um there is a a big history of polygamy within the Mormon church and I can just imagine them in the future using genetics and DNA modifications in this way yeah to um because like he he was created as a little write off so that they can get some land yeah so that they could um get all of this land basically make their own little Nation yeah uh which I wanted to get that across which is he does come from this Co-op family the political group he was created basically as a means to an end so that they can attain this land and basically have their own rule over it and not be dictated by the the powers that be and that mentioning of the Mormons earlier is really great because they could have said he was Mormon but what I what I really am liking about what they've done here is this is a series where the Mormons are in it but not necessarily all of the stuff that you associate with Mormons even little strands of them have to live only in the Mormons in this show do you know what I'm saying by that because it's just like uh because that would be easier if it was anybody who's like this is this but the show is interested in exploring the gray which is like the space in between those things and the way that identities shift and change and the impact that our relationships and power has on nose as well yes and what they are you could easily see the script just writing in they are Mormon and we would be easy to accept that because some of the tactics that they're using and the the the the big family thing and the polygamy and all of that is is synonymous with something like Mormonism but just even you're about to turn 18 run away so you don't have to do what we had to do what we expect of you and the a mission perhaps the the rather peculiar ways they go about taking land uh before they you know just bought it all with capitalistic means but uh yeah I I I really uh was drawn to to this because it's a nice science fictiony way as well to get give us insight to our main man because there's a bit of sci-fi to it obviously with him being this genetically created thing and we've got this political group that exists on Earth and how they defy the UN and this is how they do it and they went to all of these protests and marches and they would drag Holden along and that he was he wanted to go and he wanted to go but they engineered him literally to be born but they they psychologically uh prepped him to be the new leader and since he was a child how much of that was them knowing that and planning for that and creating that and how much of that was just them living their values as well like they're putting a lot on this kid right she admits that she's like we we told him from the beginning that this is why you're here on Earth you serve this purpose you're here for us for the community Unity you represent all of these things you embody these things and everybody treating him like that how much of that was them just going oh well that that just is and how much of that is okay well we need somebody to take over we need somebody who's going to be in control we need to make sure that James grows up to be like this so we need to do these things and manipulate him in in this way we set him up to be a leader and then gave him a fight he could never win the day before his 18th birthday I took him out to mend a fence and I told him to get as far away from this place as he could and then if he didn't go then I would because I couldn't stand to watch what we were doing to him anymore it's that notion too of what if you raised the presidents yeah like if you if you raised somebody and bred somebody to be the president Malcolm in the Middle yeah Malcolm in the Middle sure but if you did that what would they be what would that person be and uh they say here uh he would be Holden which is a boring goody two shoes who's got such a moral standpoint that he's willing to fight for it to a degree that is Noble yes but Annoying definitely and so chrisen after all of this lands on the side that he is a good man who just has bad luck and she talks to Aaron right who says well tough [ __ ] because that spy you wanted in the previous episode well he's he's gone off the grid and the last we heard was uh Holden and his crew are going to go off and do this thing that sounds awfully L A Lot Like terrorism so [ __ ] Holden we're going to send our boys after him and clean up this mess I I had a very weird thought and I think now is the time to share it yes cuz Aaron says he's missed his last two check yeah Aon right yeah yeah yeah is that his first name or his full name no his last name name is Aon Wright his first name is like s SV I can't remember I've seen it written down but no one said his first name by the way still no one said Ava salara in this show I just by the way fun fact I just looked up the actress saying it and that's how she said it so don't go me I was just going to start over into's full name but no no we've only seen his full name written down uh so Aaron writes there and he's like he's missed the last two check-ins MH do you think him peeing is how he checks in no I think last time he checked in was when he was at the bar last episode surveilling them but like they make such a thing about him needing to pee and he's like I needed a pee for like 2 hours I just think he was being funny yeah look look if they come around and say his PE sends out code I'm going to be real upset I'm not going to be happy I'm going to be really upset did I I I'm like with all of the modification wouldn't that be kind of one of them yeah that like that way you would never get caught I hope not and if you do they're going to have a real rough you're going to have a real rough time of them ripping that out of you but this is a nice way of connecting the earth-based story to what's going on in the literal sense of hey that spy has given us this information so now we're invested here but again all of the weight put upon Holden's backstory and how he's this ideological little boy who thinks of himself as a noble Knight even though he's just chasing after windmills because the the major sticking point to this one and I I imagine this is what everyone remembers windmills for is Amos and His World Views and the churn the churn and how that is in direct opposition to Holden so we've gone through Holden pretty thoroughly in terms of how he how he has his outlooks on things and why and so let's delve into Amos a character we both very much enjoy uh a favorite of ours and I imagine a favorite of the fans and I've been praising very much how they've found ways of not making him just crazy for the sake of crazy and drama making for the sake of drama or just evil or just evil he's not here to make conflicts happen just because he is emotionally unstable like Dogo in Farscape or like Warf at times in Deep Space 9 remember that one where wolf went on a holiday and he became an incel and he almost helped a terrorist group kill an entire planet because he's just a [ __ ] like sometimes these characters who are emotionally stunted are just [ __ ] heads in the plot and they don't do that with Amos here and yet this is a storyline that necessitates it that gets right up to that line where he is going to murder some martians which would obviously be big trouble and Holden is opposed to that for the obvious reasons of Life Is Life and the Martians are people too and remember how many of them died for us he brings that up multiple times it's fair I mean heck they use Lopez chip help with the thing so or idea that he feels indebted to people who did him a service makes sense makes sense but so does amos's uh practicality of well guess what they see us as the enemy and they won't hesitate to kill us and I see them as the enemy because they see me uh but we hear about the churn oh the ch which is uh Amos is actually talking to this spy character that's uh been stowed away on board and he is put into the airlock the spy and the Spy is bemoaning the fact that this is wrong and what he's doing the Spy is guilt tripping and psychologically toying with Amos and the crew by doing the thing you often see uh in shows nowadays especially which is making the good guys question their actions and or we see a lot in television shows now especially modern Star Trek where they the the show itself rather than the characters the show itself points to our Good Guys characters and say yeah but aren't they doing slightly morally [ __ ] up things are they really the good guys if these are our Good Guys what is morality and then they stroke their chin going hm think about that one the Federation is corrupt oh what a take that is oh my Lord utopian societies don't exist because section 31 exists blah blah blah blah blah blah blah they try and do that here where this guy does the aren't you the good guys don't you see yourself as good people don't you have any shred of decency if you kill me like a common animal uh that's bad he tries that on Amos and it doesn't work because he has the Viewpoint of the churn but guess who he tries that on later in the episode Holden and boy Works a treat with Holden because Holden is dumb enough to fall for that so much he's dumb enough to fall for that of course he is even though we don't know exactly how much it's suede Holden cuz he has a bit of a poker face on you can tell I have family out there too if you can look at yourself in the mirror and still decide that you're going to toss me into space because I'm inconvenient to you then at least you can do me the respect of telling me that it's going to happen and mercy is not in the cards for me so I can make my peace but let's get into Amos who by the way isn't this his best episode thus far this is this is the greatest material this actor's had to chew into he gets a nice juicy monologue and so explain to us all Rachel amos's world viw how he's come to this point he's come to this point because of an old boss he had I believe was the origin for the term the churn and I I get the feeling that it's something that he's been very familiar with it's the intersection that that Amos has been at a lot in his life um of being caught in the middle and being crushed by the feate of giants because he doesn't actually have any control over the situation he gets affected by the bigger powers and then going through these big changes mhm and we see that quite directly with the sort of feeling of imminent War that's building up in the show between Mars Earth and maybe this third power the OPA even is in there too yeah and of course we have the OPA which also very keen on a war happening but people like Amos aren't in the powerful seats like abis Solara no they're just a guy yeah um and Miller is in a very similar spot of he's just being affected by other people's decision like he his autonomy is limited to what people more powerful than him say he can have for Amos it's about survival that's what he's determined this to be if you live you live if you die you die that's it but it's not just that it's the inevitability of this will kill you it's a very we're not making it out of this alive and it's not just the idea of will'll all die someday it it is different than that what I like about this what I think makes this stand is our characters that we're following on this ship are the ones caught in between we've got this big Galactic conspiracy all of these higher beings are playing the game of chess and these are the porns the these are the people being moved and shuffled along and so how do they come to terms with that how do they all go about that we see Holden is Mr dignity oh I will fight back and things will work out my way because I have a good heart and we see right and the good always win and we see Naomi has Defiance she defies it she she goes against it in her own way uh and we even have humorous moments of that here where I'm very good at don't underestimate how good I am at breaking things and Alex he's not as clear but he he's far more of a passenger in life it seems even though he's the pilot of the ship he very much goes where the things take him with some minor resistance but not too much and Amos you could say is resigned to the fact that you exist in the universe and so things will happen to you oh I can die right here but that's what will happen or I won't and that will happen too and it's a very nihilistic standpoint he has uh that this is a game of survival and you either win it or you lose it but he speaks with such clarity about it and how he he he he Maps this on to Human behavior and morality Because by the end of the episode he's right like like you shouldn't think that because he's clearly like Psychopathic like he's willing to just murder people we've said this before about his violent tendencies and how they remove the Naomi was right to be afraid of you he removes the fact that there are innocent people because to him that doesn't matter innocent people they're just a part of the churn they're part of the game of survival this spy can flush him into space and he'll be dead and that'll be that and it doesn't matter we can move on or Holden you can shoot me in the head you've got a clear shot uh and then it'll be over but I I I I am I just find it fascinating that he is just so self assured and confident and we're proven that he is right to feel this way about so many people especially that spy character because it does come from from a place of him not being able to trust things him not being able to trust others on an individual level him not being able to trust himself him not being able to trust the system the powers that' be and the Universe At Large I don't know I found it really compelling and just like Holden's family and experiences have trained him to believe one thing amoses have trained him to think another and it's okay what do you think about how an episode where this could have ended with him murdering everyone it doesn't they they save the day but how do you feel about amos's World Views and how the episode lands on it almost being a good thing because they could have easily shown him going full monster mode and just derail like showing that his point is one of an evil person's mentality but through what we see in the episode they just like they give you justifications as to why he thinks like that it's much more interesting for his point of view to be understandable because it makes it more of a fair match because there is that distinct ideological divide between Holden and anus and that's been explored on built on and is continuing to be a point of conflict and that is so much more interesting than Holden good guy Aus bad guy I the expanse is a messy world it's a dirty world people don't play fair and so to reflect that you need even our good guys to have that within them Our Heroes to have that within them and Holden is incapable of that for the most part he's the goody two shoes yeah and you can fall into the many many many many done traps of well a good guy character by being so virtuous and good proves that the the human will to do right will win out over the bad in the world but that's not true okay that's not realistic wholeheartedly it doesn't always work like that and so you have a this counterpart here with Amos where he's still on the side of our protagonists like he is one of the people that we're rooting for even though he has this tendency of violence and this apathy of the world because he's still on the alignment of good and that's the that's the really but he's not fighting the same fight as Holden no he's fighting to survive Holden wants to achieve not not even Justice because there's that really great line that he has of like basically I don't want Justice through Bloodshed and so I can't even say that holen wants justice but he does want Redemption he wants his life to be more good than bad in the way that he judges his actions and the consequences of them and right now he feels sort of indebted to the universe yeah and he is driving at things with a with a specific purpose well Amos it it very much comes across to me he sees it as I am heading towards this direction and I'm going to keep heading there until I'm moved elsewhere or I'm stopped and so I'm doing this Mission with you guys because that's where I'm at and to succeed at that I'm going to kill people and if that doesn't happen great how lucky was that they they managed to find the code in time so I didn't have to kill them you didn't have to kill me it's all good right and it's just like well he's like well no violence happened so that's resolved now which is a little bit Psychopathic and creepy because most most people and most characters would have feelings about that but he is so matter of fact and um about it and but we get to see Holden Holden still feels a lot of things about it and I get why he goes to Naomi and why he talks to her the way that he does oh she addresses the fact that he's not a puppy dog remember how we've been calling her him her puppy dog she even says he's not a dog yeah he is Naomi he is but um the fact that he does talk down about Amos wouldn't you yes he's scary yeah but for us he he sees him himself as his own weapon in the fight for survival he like I feel like if you asked Amos okay what are you you would ask several times before he's being he would be like a human a person he'd be like uh I'm a member of the ship I shoot good can blow stuff up he's an intricate character because on the surface he comes across as simple but the writing but more so the actor a lot of this comes down to the actor cuz if you didn't have the right performer for this role the the way we would view him would be less favorable and the actor plays him with such just natural warmth in inside of the detached coldness of the character that I can't help but like be affectionate towards him he has these eyes that both look through you and yet are so emotive they haven't explicitly said his backstory but what we get of it like like what we have gotten of it and his performance tells me that this guy is someone who grew up very very much in poor circumstances a rough life and so he is a bars around sex workers he he he's a byproduct of the environment he lived in and I it's very much a nature versus nurture thing from from him like how much of it is his nature and how much of it was his nurture this boss that I used to work for in Baltimore he called it the churn when the rules of the game change what game The Only Game survival but the jungle tears itself down and builds itself into something new guys like you and me we end up dead doesn't really mean anything or we happen to live through it well that doesn't mean anything either so they find this man on board their ship transmitting codes back and it's the guy from the bar and he has his little eye checking things out and he's very much a slippery character he is designed to be two-faced obviously cuz he's a spy what did you think of him I thought he was a really good spy that's what I kept on going back to because like we we we see him doing his thing he's got like this thing booby trapped ready for Amos as well like Amos just happened to catch him by surprise I thought he was good I like that actor um they get good actors on this show overall he was funny he was cowardly cunning smart I I never I never got past though the fact that there was a scene where they left him in the airlock with his hands free yeah I was just like he could more careful [ __ ] around with technology even though that's how like that's how Amos met him was sabotaging [ __ ] like don't don't don't let him be free as much as I like this character he did make the crew or specifically Amos come across a bit dumber than I think they ought to have made him and I don't even think the payoff there was all that worth it like the payoff being he's setting up this I don't know trap or or Gizmo inside of the the airlock and then oh he finds out that Amos is here to bring him back and so he quickly tucks it away so that he does n activated it's very much played as a little dramatic irony and a bit of humor there I don't know I don't think it was worth it because um I think everything else they did with the character was fine but that was just one of those where they just wanted to make sure that we know he's still Shifty even though he come across as pathetic uh and I think they communicated that already capable yeah it was just a bit like well he needs something to do so let's give him this business and he helps them with the mission that they're on and now they're left with him at the very end not knowing what they can do with him do they let him go do they make him a member of the crew do they kill him do they imprison him uh it's unknown what they're going to do with him but he's already planning we see when Holden's talking to him and he's talking to Holden we see from the point of view of his eye scanning for Stuff there's nothing there there's no network connection but he's he's playing the game yeah but he's he's banking up all of this stuff yes and I think that this will be one character to also keep an eye on of how they handle him because he can easily fall into the annoying trickster character that keeps managing to like foil the group and yet still keep being there or he can be uh one of the most like gripping in terms of of that because I mean bring up say like uh how long is he going to stick around how long is he going to stick around uh I don't know because you could go many ways with this guy and so I I I want to see what they do with him overall and he did have the P gag the piss gag that was funny I liked how that they did that they did rues rule of three and I enjoyed it I thought I I can't believe we actually got to see him piss and that he was relieved that he finally got to piss other shows would have avoided actually giving us that not the expanse the expanse you know that Meme the the Predator meme of like the two hands embracing and flexing the muscles and it's got the text saying like things in common about it this is Babylon 5 and the expans showing us characters piss like that's the Sci-Fi thing between them two it's like yes because in B5 we would get many scenes of the characters pissing at the urinal the story on the ship we haven't even really approached that much because it's very light yeah it's a very simple story it's more about the tension and the emotions of the character and what it what it wants to elicit from the audience as well because they are flying through marsh and space and things have been uh already [ __ ] up for them because of what happened with the rock hopper in the last episode it's now the Martians on UltraViolet red Defcon 12 million they're very rided up because one of their ships got attacked by that uh that Martian from that rock hopper in the last episode and so now they're very much looking through every ship and bringing them in and not letting anything slip them by and even though the crew have bolted on junk to the ship it's not good enough and thanks to the spies bro is even more obvious that they should be boarded and checked and what I really got out of this was I I don't even care about the tension of this because you know what I found to be the prevalent emotion that I had when or prevalent feeling I had when going through this fun this was more fun yeah this is and the characters don't treat it like deathly serious they're not panicking and arguing and worrying as much no they're very practical and experienced and there's a comedic lean to how they approach things Naomi's making jokes donkey balls the fact that the donkey balls thing is said gives you an understanding of what the tone is when it comes to them handling this plot it's nothing serious I was never worried for them I was never sweating I was never in panic of them getting caught the most you get of that is Will Amos kill these people what would that bring upon the ship yeah like there is tension without eminent danger and I think the show is putting a lot of trust in its audience and assuming a level of media literacy as well because of the way that it plays out that idea because it isn't like that's it's primary goal it's if you know these tells you know that they're safe you can relax you can lean into it if you didn't then you still have the tension you still have the concern so either way you're still enjoying it because there's sort of I go back to the idea of layers there's layers of meaning and stuff going on so even if you have the plot pegged from the start which both of us did we didn't say anything to each other but it's like it was obvious well we know they're going to be safe they're going to get something at the very last second yes they're going to get the code words at the last second cuz the whole thing is if you speak certain code words the Martians will leave you alone cuz they think that you're high priority security Black Ops doing something and there was never a doubt you're right and what made this stand to like like stand out to me as well is we we discussed this in the second episode that that blue collar approach to it of I'll kick it and it will work this was I'm going to grab the screwdriver I'm going to grab this I'm just going to [ __ ] hack my way through it and Bash my way through it The Brute Force mentality and this does stand out to me when it comes to science fiction television shows a a lot of the time you get very clever witty ways or very sci-fi technobabble ways to break through things like oh it's a 24 number digit code and you're expecting oh one of them's going to start hacking like computer hacking and computering be no just grab a hammer and let's go work that that thing about wanting to see like a lake on Mars and if we turn the numbers if we turn the letters into numbers oh if you just write yum yum until you ran out of words the limit number then you can unlock it but I know what you're saying though and there's the other version of this it's like Naomi because she's an engineer means that she's also on computers so she hooks up a thing and then she starts tapping away and oh no they're running out of power and that's stopping her from doing what she wants and blah blah blah all the spy just gives them card yeah and instead it is pass me that drill pass me that hammer I'm just going to bash my way into this oh we need power to be taken out Naomi can you just rip the power out but make sure not to take away this power yeah I can do that done that's it and I and this is a comparison I don't make lightly this is more straight laced less goofy but still has that little bit of levity which is Red Dwarf does this a lot where a part of that show is you have the lowest ranking crew members on the ship they're the people who fix the soup machines when they're not is broken and many episodes would take that blunt Brute Force there's a reason why one of the great lines in Red Dwarf is it's too early in the morning for that Star Trek crap because that show is saying no we're not Star Trek we can do Star Trek plots if we like but we do them in the red dwarf way the the blue color schmuck Schmo way and I like that the expanse has that as well obviously too less of an overt sitcom comedy Ben to it but they still have it like I was smiling from ear to ear that he just grabbed out a drill and was just going ham on it because how many times do we see in these science fiction shows they get up a holographic screen and start smacking in some code and they start speaking techn Babble that you don't understand and you don't care about and you just log off until the thing happens that progresses the story at least here there's a tactile nature to it where I go okay he's trying to open it up the way I would try and open that up that's the relatability factor of the expanse we talk about the details a lot of the expanse to me is always brought about how there's great details in the world building and the law and how things work you need this so that you can do zero like survive the GeForce and they don't have gravity so they have to do this and this is how suits work and all that is great but but to me this is the realism that draws me in instead of doing some normal sci-fi thing to get the job done here they just like in the second episode kick it until it works son of a [ __ ] can you believe that damn I'm good that worked out well done y'all do you want to start at the start or start at the end with Mela let's start at the start it's it's fairly straightforward what he's going through he's sad he is a sad and angry little man last episode he got fired and he's very angry at The World At Large world but specifically the head of the OPA that [ __ ] Anderson dors is doing press tours that was amusing just seeing him doing a little press junket on the TV I had a good laugh at that yeah um and then he's just chilling in his own nightclub and Miller goes up to him to be like hey [ __ ] it you ruined my life I hate you you suck I did like his he's still just like you're a Bela you'll come around I'm fighting for you and one day when you lose it all when you actually lose everything hey audience one day Miller will actually lose everything by the way he hasn't lost everything yet oh I when you lose everything what I'm saying I want to relisten to that little bit of dialogue like when a man loses everything then you'll under then you'll come back here because you haven't lost everything cuz I've lost everything so I know what it's like I'm Jared Harris I wanted to start with the very beginning scene with him though he's on the train and he's recording a message or sending off some kind of uh Speech to Julie mau's father about how he has let the case down and that you get all of these in Star Helix that they're dime a dozen where they put you on a job where they don't actually want you to solve it and so there are many people like Julie who fall through the cracks but Miller actually became invested in this case and in this person and he feels it as a personal responsibility he he takes he takes it very hard that he's become attached to to this girl and to the case and he can't fulfill it and so he's sending his so story out and that's him throughout the episode is his lashing out he can't seemingly he can't finish the case and so he's going to [ __ ] and moan about it and I don't mean that in a fli I don't mean that in a flippant way this is him at the low point this is him at the low point of the story he's he's he he he's he's volatile he'll do reckless things he'll go over to Anderson doors and say [ __ ] you you stink I hate you you tried to kill me last time he'll just Ki maybe you'll kill me and I can get this end this and he's no longer An Elegant cop he's just going to kick Julie's door down and walk into an apartment and start going through her [ __ ] and just throwing it all over the place until he necklaces a MTO uhhuh and and then he is going to uh go to his apartment and and and and just be a Sad Sack I've not enjoyed Miller's story lines for the most part during the show and I know you haven't either but I appreciate it very much and I found it very enjoyable in this one there was very minimal dialogue from him and it was a lot of Thomas Jane acting out the emotional landscape that Miller was going through I understood him very much more showing than a lot of the Miller plots have been if I turned off the sound and watched his story I could still gather where his head is at and that's the ultimate compliment I can I can give it but there is more to the story Rachel it isn't just him being sad it isn't just him lashing on saying hey Anderson doors I'm not like you I wear a hat he actually has to hang up his hat at the end of this episode for a reason that is very important and what is that reason Rachel he's going to AOS where Holden is going is also going and where Aaron Riot plans to have Holden assassinated and why is he going there why is Miller going there he's got a lead one of the what was it it wasn't the Anubis ship it was a carrier from that ship yeah has been sitting in their transport Bay for ages yep just rock racking up docking fees he gets this tip from um that guy that I think we've seen before I think he called him up to say hey could you check this out or at least he's been referenced when he appeared I went oh I remember this being I was like set up yeah I was like this isn't a random thing this is um this connects to something but I can't remember clearly but I'm like I know you did something I just can't remember what so the very last scene and shot of this episode is ask getting the confirmation that he's on that transport heading for AOS I did find a bit OD I'm like I get that you have to like buy a ticket we see him gather all of his coins yeah put in then but then it's just like the previous scene felt like the end of the episode and then there was this as well and I'm like okay I get it multiple ending syndrome you wanted to like really reinforce no no no he's on his way he's on his way I'm happy to see that he's on his way because this is a show where it takes him five episodes to get the to get the ship so yeah like I get it but I was also just like it didn't add a lot to me oh okay it felt very functional I guess there's the the the Dilemma of his final scene before that was a really really heartfelt and uh really deep character Insight between him and his you know and his partner Octavia oh yeah it was the placement of it more than like that could have been a greata to to to Miller where we know he's going to go off but we've had this great conversation before a real high point and then then and there's just this dialogist scene of him on the ship looking serious yeah the extras and him being hatless oh he's hatless oh boy and but he's still got shoes on in this he must Thomas Jane must be so upset he really would have loved to have hung his shoes on that and walked out but I really like the conversation he had with his partner and how she was really upset with him for trying to leave without saying anything properly I like also that we don't see the message that he sent her we just get the sort of idea that um he just did those messages to everybody and he was just going back and forth in the tube that we saw him and she just like is that all I get and he's just like yeah um and I love no havlock to be seen if he doesn't appear again that would be the gift that keeps on giving but we with Miller he's going to go here he's going to go to the station he's going to connect up with the other plot lines because he's been so adjacent to them so it's going to be exciting to see him finally converge with the other characters but I did uh I thought it was Miller is a character I've struggled with but this one did give me more to go on with that conversation about how he starts to open up and admit to the fact that he is a creature of such despair that he needs to follow this through because if he doesn't what will he has nothing and that's sad it's really sad but uh it's a sadness that makes for a compelling character to see him be the cop that cannot stop and he will do it even if it destroys him and so I'm more invested in Miller than I ever have been and I really want to see him talk to the other characters I want to see him in Naomi talk I want to see him in Amos chat and probably get into a punch up going to take a trip to where arrows yeah I'm going to uh see the sights what sights M Aros is a garbage dump if this thing is as big as you think it is you need someone to watch your back a partner how do you feel about the story how they've made the story lines uh tie together as they have because we've been wondering how are they going to make them link up yeah and we knew that that was a thing that was going to happen but I think it was maybe last episode fairly sure I did this on M of being like how much are they going to wrap up before the end of the season like at what point are we going to change over and it definitely feels like probably the big climax is going to center around AOS because they are both converging there we are as as the getting towards the end of this season because it's 10 episodes I think yes and next one will be episode eight yeah so and often like the final two episodes of TV from this era um either are double parters or feel like double parties so it's just like we'll get a little bit more set up probably in next episode yeah I I imagine we're going to get a little bit of of that for sure like uh them arriving there any hurdles they have to go through with that and probably the stuff with Chris Jen being a bit more prevalent because whether she's physically going to go there and try and stop what's happening or she's going to at least send forces herself intervene or have some uh agency in in in in a fashion that could be played with a in the next episode yeah and I don't know if we're going to get to see that St steal ship again yeah will the stealth ship know about stuff about what's going on here yeah because it it is out there in that area and Holden seems to be a magnet for it so um I know sorry that's getting a little bit of aead ourselves and getting into prediction territory I mean that's my predictions okay I'm just not going to to bother doing the predictions later cuzz that's my predictions for the upcoming episodes as well like I don't have too much to add to that now I'm good to give a rating if you are because let's hear it Ryan uh I enjoyed this I thought it was good I liked this because it took uh it took a back step in terms of the momentum but did not neglect to still give us good material because we've had that where we've taken a step back and uh we get back to the butcher which was one of my least favorite episodes It's was like oh here's all the havlock stuff like uh we'll go through all that crap and the OPA and this here was uh more restrained but I still give it a yum yum yum yum I also give it a Yum Yum Yum Yum on a scale of yum being bad and yum yum being good we both give this a good rating but what is the next episode what is episode eight of season one of the expense Salvage Salvage that's a good title because we also know that um like there's a lot to salvage here and they're actually going to Scrapyard planet or like junky planet with a for parts and of this record M all three episodes that we have left are all in 8.5gb well we'll we'll see if it's actually good yes see it's yum yum the gaun belter appeared the gaunt belter did appear and he said not dusters but he said that you can find the Yum Yum podcast on all of the social medias under yum yum pod or yum yum podcast make sure to follow them on there or else you're you're World Waller did you know that the OPA has an email but that's not important cuz you can contact the Yum Yum podcast via yum yumod gmail.com if you support with financial means yum yum podcast on patreon you get a lot of exclusive content on bonus content as well as getting to be a part of a group Discord the I hear this this is true yum yum podcast which I am a host of So You can tell this is a reliable source actually released the expanse discussions on patreon first so if you want to hear our thoughts on the remainder of season 1 into season 2 right now go over to our patreon yum yum podcast on patreon you can hear so much more about what we think of the expans right here and now okay instead of having to wait the week to week doors was doing a press junket for the OPA G alter was taking a little side mission and hyping us up and we appreciate that can we end the episode with a hearty thank you gaun belter thank you gaunt belter we really appreciate it you're one of our most valuable yings you're my favorite character in the show thank you gaunt belter keep doing what you're
doing see you there Well
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