Babylon 5 must face its biggest challenge yet! Trying to stay open while solving an assassination attempt. COVER ART BY: artlizahh MUSIC BY: Mbryo SUPPORT US: patreon.com/yumyumpod EMAIL US: yumyumpod@gmail.com FOLLOW US: Twitter: @YumYumPodcast Facebook: @YumYumPodcast Instagram: @yumyumpod Reddit: r/YumYumPodcast
Welcome aboard the space station Yum Yum 5 in which your intrepid hosts Ryan and Rachel Sliwinski try to re-watch and break down episodes of Babylon 5 without having a breakdown. This week on Yum Yum 5 we’re discussing “The Gathering”
Remember that Yum Yum is God!
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00:00:05:19 - 00:00:14:01
Rachel
Yeah.
00:00:14:03 - 00:00:15:09
Rachel
Hi, Ryan. How are you?
00:00:15:14 - 00:00:24:21
Ryan
Hello, Rachel. I am doing yum yum. That's how I'm doing and doing pretty well. But most importantly, I'm doing yum yum. How about yourself?
00:00:24:23 - 00:00:27:24
Rachel
I'm unsettled because something's different.
00:00:28:04 - 00:00:47:17
Ryan
Oh, the music. Background music changed. My name is still the same. Your name still same. But the music is different. But the yum yum still here. That's the most important aspect of the show. Yes, we're covering a different show. We're not doing Star Trek Discovery anymore. Where the famous line Yum Yum spawned from. Oh, what a line! It changed everything.
00:00:47:19 - 00:00:51:20
Ryan
It was. It was the dawn of the Third Age of mankind. That's what it was.
00:00:51:20 - 00:00:57:02
Rachel
Man and Nandi departed. Discovery. And we have followed suit.
00:00:57:03 - 00:01:30:14
Ryan
Exactly. And now we are rewatching and reviewing and talking about Babylon five, a 1990s sci fi epic series that also has some movies and some books and a whole plethora of, aspects to it. A sorely underseen show, which is actually started and slightly changed now that it is available on HBO Max and they've released a HD remaster of it all, it's all exciting, and we thought, we're big fans of the show.
00:01:30:17 - 00:01:40:20
Ryan
We want to use our rewatch for something bigger and greater than just sitting on a couch and clapping. Every time Londo makes a funny, or crying every time he makes us sad.
00:01:40:22 - 00:01:53:23
Speaker 3
You make very good shocks, Mr. Garibaldi. We were pretty good shocks ourselves once, but somehow along the way, we forgot how to bite.
00:01:54:03 - 00:02:15:18
Ryan
We are here to deliver the yum yum perspective on Babylon five. And as stated, this is from a rewatch perspective. We are rewatching it. So if you have not seen The Gathering and I would say if you have not seen season one, especially, do so because that is what we are going to be talking about. And again, spoilers.
00:02:15:22 - 00:02:23:05
Ryan
You have been warned. The show is far more easily available now and it looks nice. So, Rachel.
00:02:23:07 - 00:02:24:03
Rachel
Yes, Ryan.
00:02:24:03 - 00:02:29:21
Ryan
Do you want to hear what we're talking about, where the show begins?
00:02:29:23 - 00:02:40:05
Rachel
I want to hear how IMDb describes this film because, I don't think it'll do a great job.
00:02:40:07 - 00:02:58:24
Ryan
We are watching and talking about, the pilot movie The Gathering. And the description goes as such, the opening of a crucial space station is put in jeopardy when the command officer is accused of the attempted murder of a diplomat.
00:02:59:01 - 00:03:04:08
Rachel
Not the opening. It's been open for a while. Well, maybe.
00:03:04:08 - 00:03:08:19
Ryan
It's like, been open in terms of being a diplomatic station.
00:03:08:19 - 00:03:11:22
Rachel
Then why is everybody walking around the Zocalo?
00:03:11:23 - 00:03:25:05
Ryan
Because they're having fun. Yeah. Takashima kind of makes it weird because she brings up that, like, she's been, like, it's been around for, like, a year and she's been getting coffee, and it's a weird statement, but the statement is still the plot is.
00:03:25:06 - 00:03:31:17
Rachel
It's like it's the construction of the sentence. If it was just like the weather, it's going to stay open. Well, you.
00:03:31:17 - 00:03:33:16
Ryan
Can go on IMDb and write your own.
00:03:33:18 - 00:03:35:22
Rachel
Rachel, maybe I will.
00:03:36:02 - 00:04:04:02
Ryan
Babylon five, this is the pilot. And to explain this for people who, a little bit unfamiliar or may have skipped over this or don't remember, this is a pilot movie that came out a, a year before the series. It came out a while for the series. So there is going to be some changes, more drastic changes than the usual norm of a pilot two series, because it actually took a while to get picked up as a series.
00:04:04:02 - 00:04:32:21
Ryan
So there's going to be lots of differences in this pilot that we will, of course, talk about. There's there's different characters here. The look of the show is different. The writing of the show is different. The characterization of people is very different. But I appreciate that this movie, The Gathering, is still a part of the story. This isn't just a weird anomaly that exists, it is a part of the narrative they refer to it constantly.
00:04:32:23 - 00:05:00:13
Ryan
It is brought up, it is reflected upon. So although I don't usually watch this a lot in my own rewatches yeah, I appreciate that. You can still watch it and it exists and it makes sense. Yes, there's going to be continuity differences, like the way things are pronounced and the look of people and the characterization of stuff. But the meat of this still is, is relevant to the rest of the material.
00:05:00:13 - 00:05:25:19
Ryan
And that is something that is something to, applaud and praise. It isn't a complete throw away. And if people are interested in production, stuff either offers up that of like they thought that, ooh, they got rid of these wristwatches and put the things in the back of the hands for the communicators. And they have these big guns, and the uniforms are almost like how we remember them, but they're also very different to how we know them from the show.
00:05:25:19 - 00:05:29:17
Rachel
The combat uniforms looks quite different. Yeah.
00:05:29:17 - 00:05:39:19
Ryan
And, and, but also there's many things that they just nailed down from the very beginning and said, that works. Keep it that way. And let's just keep chugging along, shall we?
00:05:39:20 - 00:05:43:01
Rachel
Babylon five is open for business.
00:05:43:03 - 00:05:45:16
Ryan
What's your history with this, Rachel?
00:05:45:18 - 00:06:13:02
Rachel
So I would shoot for the first time after finishing the five season. Because I was not ready to let go with Babylon five. I just needed more of these characters. I wasn't ready to let go. I demanded that we watched them. Even though you were like, they're not that good. And I'm like, but I. But I want more Babylon five.
00:06:13:04 - 00:06:15:15
Rachel
I need more Babylon five. I'm not ready.
00:06:15:15 - 00:06:41:01
Ryan
I'm not ready. Yeah. See them in their, high school phase where they're like, well, quit. I my history is I've watched this movie and the series lots of, for for good amount of times more. So the TV series itself and the movies I grew up with the DVDs of Babylon five. Being in rural Australia, getting the DVD is was, arduous in its own right.
00:06:41:01 - 00:07:09:09
Ryan
The first season came out straight off the bat like 2002, 2003, and then it took 3 to 4 years in my area of Australia, at least for the other seasons, to come out and be released, and they were released all at once, like season two, three, 4 or 5, bam! Like that. And even down to the annoyances of my first season DVD is a box DVD case, and the others aren't, because they just took so long that by the time the others came out, they said no to boxes anymore.
00:07:09:11 - 00:07:12:06
Ryan
And then we get the movies. The movie.
00:07:12:06 - 00:07:12:22
Rachel
DVD.
00:07:12:22 - 00:07:39:09
Ryan
Packs, were almost impossible to find out in the wild. We would have to get them online and and they cost a ludicrous amount of money. And of course, why would we spend that much money on these movies? We'll just wait for them to get cheaper or wait till we see them in real life. My mum works in retail, so she would be thinking, well, if they releasing all the others, that must mean down the line, they're going to release the movies in my store and also.
00:07:39:09 - 00:07:39:21
Rachel
Pick up.
00:07:39:21 - 00:07:55:15
Ryan
And get my staff discount. Eventually I bought the movies myself, being an adult and the gathering is, in my recollections, the most finest of them all in terms of like,
00:07:55:17 - 00:08:04:07
Rachel
It does the it does the things think this way, it does the job, but it doesn't really do the job fully, though.
00:08:04:07 - 00:08:28:20
Ryan
And since I always watch the show from the episode one season one, I didn't see any reason to start it at this TV movie that isn't really representative of the whole. When I could just watch season one, episode one, which I think perfectly nails down the show, I think it's a great introduction to the series The Gathering. I'm not a huge fan of it, having to rewatch it for this.
00:08:28:22 - 00:08:53:18
Ryan
I was excited, but also kind of dreading it. I was excited to see what things would would float to the top and be surprising to me because again, I haven't watched it all that much in comparison to the rest of the material. So there will be things that I've forgotten, things I took for granted, or things that I would approach now being a bit older and I would appreciate them a lot more just going for that acting choice.
00:08:53:18 - 00:09:06:22
Ryan
Actually not that bad. Or this, this, this and the other things like that. But I got to tell you, Rachel, not a fan of the gathering, not a huge fan of it. What about you? How did you feel revisiting it?
00:09:06:24 - 00:09:31:24
Rachel
I didn't mind it when we were watching it, but through discussing it with you after, I keep on finding more and more faults with it. And the credits that I end up giving it are almost entirely because they feed into something else in the main chunk of the show that I do like.
00:09:32:04 - 00:10:04:03
Ryan
Yeah, it. And that's a part of what makes this a rewatch experience of, you know, you watch The Gathering, say, if you watched it the way it was intended, you watch it first, then you may not be entirely bowled over. Or maybe you are and you're thinking, wow, what's this going to lead to? That's the thing to to acknowledge both of us due to how the physical media was released down here and my own personal preferences for Rachel, we never watched The Gathering as the first installment of Babylon five.
00:10:04:06 - 00:10:25:18
Ryan
We watched it after, and so when we watched it after, it does feel like an afterthought. In a way. It feels like, oh, okay, some leftovers. We have to eat our vegetables now instead of having the meat. But since we're watching it here now, I do feel like there are some elements here that are good. I although I didn't like it, I think there's lots of good stuff here.
00:10:25:18 - 00:10:42:22
Ryan
There's potential. I could see why they struggled for a year whether or not to pick this up because there's stuff feels like this is brilliant, and then there's stuff where it's like, I don't know what the intentions are. I don't know what they were trying to achieve here, and the middle portion of it just being bland.
00:10:42:24 - 00:11:01:24
Rachel
Yeah. But I think we both agree that the biggest strength of the gathering, here's how much beautiful articulated world building there is in this movie to a.
00:11:01:24 - 00:11:03:12
Ryan
Fault and a lot of, well.
00:11:03:13 - 00:11:14:14
Rachel
Salt like some scenes really suffer under the burden of too much exposition. Yeah, specifically aimed at the world building.
00:11:14:19 - 00:11:15:18
Ryan
And how the station.
00:11:15:18 - 00:11:48:22
Rachel
Works while they often neglect character development. Yeah, but there are so many interesting layers that are developed throughout this movie. Of all of these little details that help make this station feel like it's part of a world that includes Earth and includes these galaxies of aliens and different races.
00:11:48:22 - 00:11:50:00
Ryan
And even in this movie.
00:11:50:00 - 00:11:56:19
Rachel
All of these problems and into relational issues.
00:11:56:19 - 00:11:57:10
Ryan
And history.
00:11:57:10 - 00:11:59:10
Rachel
Ideologies and history.
00:11:59:10 - 00:12:01:15
Ryan
This feels like a lifted world.
00:12:01:17 - 00:12:22:16
Rachel
You do feel like you are stepping into a world that exists. But sometimes it feels like when you like, really immersed in a video game and then you turn around too quickly and there's something that's not fully loaded yet.
00:12:22:18 - 00:12:48:04
Ryan
I would say what I love about the Babylon five world in this, and in the first episode of season one, is the creator of the show really sat down and thought about the nitty gritty little details like the station. It has to have artificial gravity, but it doesn't. Actually, it has the spinning gravity and has different types of gravity in different locations for certain types of aliens as well as oxygen.
00:12:48:04 - 00:12:48:18
Ryan
And this one you.
00:12:48:18 - 00:12:55:04
Rachel
Can adjust different sectors to. Yeah, and comedy, all of the different types of light.
00:12:55:04 - 00:13:07:20
Ryan
And the station is rotating. It is hovering on the outside of this planet, and it's got its axis via that side that gets exploded out of the axis. This ship is tearing itself apart because space is a lot.
00:13:07:20 - 00:13:11:09
Rachel
And it's deep in neutral space.
00:13:11:11 - 00:13:11:19
Ryan
Yeah.
00:13:11:20 - 00:13:15:10
Rachel
And they acknowledge that it wasn't always neutral space.
00:13:15:10 - 00:13:36:06
Ryan
It used to be centrist, but and we get like the this alien race has a grudge with this one. These guys had a war just recently. There's this air of we are really trying to figure out what peace is after just having a massive war. This really does feel like how he states that this is the UN of space.
00:13:36:08 - 00:13:36:19
Rachel
Yes.
00:13:36:19 - 00:13:56:23
Ryan
And it's not just because he states that when we get diplomats, there's this overwhelming, oppressive atmosphere in the air of this episode of if Sinclair, the commander of the station, makes a mistake here or here or says the wrong thing to this person, there's a war, it could happen. And that is what I do love.
00:13:57:00 - 00:14:00:11
Rachel
A very delicate balance.
00:14:00:13 - 00:14:01:00
Ryan
00:14:01:02 - 00:14:08:22
Rachel
Of the state of the political environment that dictates how Babylon five does.
00:14:08:23 - 00:14:23:18
Speaker 3
Fallen government finds it very suspicious that he was out of the ship less than a minute when he suddenly fell ill. I want to talking about retaliation, but if this turns out to be anything other than natural illness, or if anyone didn't anything to him, this could escalate fast.
00:14:23:18 - 00:14:48:10
Ryan
And we're going to talk about it's got a unique sci fi identity because it presents things that big sci fi shows like Star Trek did not do as frequently, if ever, such as aliens with different, oxygen needs or gravitational needs or aliens that, like non humanoid that they're, they're, they're the.
00:14:48:12 - 00:14:50:18
Rachel
Show the primary cast.
00:14:50:22 - 00:15:06:12
Ryan
Yeah. Or alien aliens that aren't just a guy with pointy ears or a ridge on his nose. You got a full on lizard. Massive marsupial man. With Jaka, you've got whatever the hell Kosh is supposed to be. You got Delenn with a bone head thing going on and a lot of makeup, but it's.
00:15:06:12 - 00:15:08:04
Rachel
Not have Lando's hair.
00:15:08:05 - 00:15:28:09
Ryan
Londo is here. He's the most humanoid. But it's not even the make up appliance. Sing and all of that stuff. It's that they really do feel like different alien cultures, and that in this, they thought about it. They really thought like, how would this alien be on a human spaceship? The human spaceship would have to accommodate these aliens.
00:15:28:09 - 00:15:31:06
Ryan
So there's an alien sector and this and that.
00:15:31:06 - 00:15:56:13
Rachel
And a really big kudos that I want to give to the show on that point is that all of these alien species and races feel like that's truly what they are like. When you think about it. You can get that sense of like, oh, they've taken this part from this sense of humanity in this part, from this sense of humanity.
00:15:56:16 - 00:15:57:19
Ryan
Yeah, this culture.
00:15:57:21 - 00:16:03:20
Rachel
But it doesn't feel like Star Trek in that sense of like.
00:16:03:22 - 00:16:05:19
Ryan
Oh, direct allegory.
00:16:05:21 - 00:16:14:16
Rachel
That's just like this part, this species is directly related to this.
00:16:14:18 - 00:16:16:17
Ryan
Crisis on Earth.
00:16:16:19 - 00:16:22:08
Rachel
Like. Yeah, the Ferengi are a specific part of Jewish culture, which is banded.
00:16:22:11 - 00:16:26:22
Ryan
Which is very much hope by them hiring Jewish actors all the time who really yuck it up for.
00:16:26:22 - 00:16:27:22
Rachel
You. Yeah, they do.
00:16:27:24 - 00:16:28:24
Ryan
And they,
00:16:29:01 - 00:16:33:01
Rachel
And but Babylon five doesn't do that.
00:16:33:03 - 00:16:53:24
Ryan
No. And I also love even in this it's expanded upon way more in the show. But even in this, I love how Earth is presented as the same shit, just different location. You still have to deal with that paperwork and bureaucracy. You still have to deal with drugs being smuggled into places and like security and like.
00:16:53:24 - 00:16:54:15
Rachel
And all.
00:16:54:15 - 00:16:55:13
Ryan
Of this baggage.
00:16:55:13 - 00:16:58:08
Rachel
That that is protecting them selves.
00:16:58:10 - 00:17:21:13
Ryan
All right. And and people grappling with whether or not they should break the rules to fix things. But is that breaking the whole point of the endeavor of neutrality and trying to be the peace keepers? If you us that stuff is the tantalizing meat here it is juicy stuff and I wish more of it was in here. And we'll get to those issues later.
00:17:21:13 - 00:17:28:14
Ryan
But I want to talk about what I think really boiled me over the most watching the gathering.
00:17:28:14 - 00:17:30:24
Rachel
I walked on this particular viewing.
00:17:31:01 - 00:17:34:24
Ryan
I walked in with a certain headspace.
00:17:35:00 - 00:17:35:17
Rachel
Yeah, a.
00:17:35:17 - 00:18:08:01
Ryan
Certain preconception, I guess. People over the years, long term fans, new people have often cited that Michael O'hare's performance is very bad, very wooden, very not good, especially in the gathering. Having grown up with the first season just on its own for 2 to 3 years in my childhood, I do not have this association with Sinclair. I like Sinclair, I, he's not my favorite character, but I do like him, and I've always liked his performance.
00:18:08:01 - 00:18:27:23
Ryan
I've always just. And as someone who is an actor and he's into acting, when I watch the series. Yeah, I think I know what he's approaching here. We'll talk about that as we go along with rewatching the show. But I was expecting, oh, he's going to be bad in the pilot because I remember other people that I do love being bad in the pilot.
00:18:28:00 - 00:18:45:07
Ryan
I thought he was great. There was some awkward moments here, and they're mainly down to editing. They left some, like, weird spaces in between when characters were supposed to cut each other off. You know what I'm talking about when they're talking. Yeah, and that's not the acting fault. He's there. He delivers his line. He has to stop.
00:18:45:07 - 00:19:10:12
Ryan
You know? That's how it works. It's about the editing and the direction there. But I understood what Michael O'Hare was doing as Commander Sinclair in this movie. I found him to be the most fully lived in and realized character in this. I found him compelling. I found him genuinely enthralling and interesting. He was juggling a lot of different tonal shifts, as the character had to be very funny at some point.
00:19:10:12 - 00:19:26:14
Ryan
They had to be very stern and angry. He had to be kind and generous. He had to be somebody who stressed out, but also trying to negotiate a deal here and there. He had a lot of stuff to work with, and I showed him. I thought he rose up to the occasion very well. What about you?
00:19:26:16 - 00:20:20:18
Rachel
I really like his performance as well. And one thing that I really enjoyed on this rewatch was letting one particular line cast a big shadow over his performance, which is a line from Carolyn where she says, you walk around with that command badge like you're going to break it to him and I see a lot of the decisions that the actor made and, in retrospect of that line and then moving forward in the rest of the movie as a reflection of that, of he doesn't know how to be himself in this role and also he's got so much baggage that he's bringing to it.
00:20:20:18 - 00:20:21:23
Ryan
Yeah, he's.
00:20:22:00 - 00:20:52:04
Rachel
That he goes from one extreme to the other. He's either trying to be completely neutral and removed from the situation. Yeah. Which kind of leads to him getting railroaded when he's accused of being the one that poisoned Kosh, or he's putting himself directly in the firing line in terms of stepping in and being the point person when there's that hostage situation with the dust dealer.
00:20:52:08 - 00:21:18:06
Ryan
Yeah. And I completely agree. I think what's interesting, too, is we are so used to having watched star Trek that the captain, even if we see them for the first time on the ship, they're already an experienced officer who knows exactly what they're doing in the position. And that's actually what we liked about Star Trek Discovery with Saru, his nervous energy and his failures and falls and missteps.
00:21:18:09 - 00:21:26:05
Rachel
Growth that we get to see and explore along with that character. As a leader, you.
00:21:26:05 - 00:21:45:12
Ryan
Feel like you're in safe hands with a character captain in Star Trek more often than not, especially at the very beginning. But with Commander Sinclair, we don't have that. And nor does he, because he feels inexperienced for the position, and he still feels like he has a lot of baggage of his own life that he hasn't come to terms with.
00:21:45:18 - 00:21:58:21
Ryan
He hasn't figured out how to play the character himself, hasn't figured out how to play the role of the diplomat and the soldier. That is what he's struggle with is in this movie. He's trying to figure out, when do you play.
00:21:58:21 - 00:22:28:17
Rachel
One and when Devon thought that he was going to be in this situation. Yeah, and we know that. And look for signs of that because we've we're watching it after we've watched the series and we know what happens to Sinclair in the long run. But more importantly, how Sinclair got to that position and why he was appointed. Yeah.
00:22:28:17 - 00:22:37:05
Rachel
Into that role and why he is so uncomfortable being in that chair under that spotlight and.
00:22:37:05 - 00:22:52:02
Ryan
Even within this episode that that amazing conversation with Carolyn between the two of them, you zoom out and think about it from, from from this angle. This was a guy who watched every single one of his friends get massacred.
00:22:52:02 - 00:22:53:10
Rachel
That he was responsible.
00:22:53:10 - 00:22:55:13
Ryan
That he felt responsible for. That's his life because.
00:22:55:17 - 00:22:58:23
Rachel
He was the leader. He was the leader of that group.
00:22:58:23 - 00:23:13:14
Ryan
But as Carolyn says, they chose to be there. And they knew that. They knew the duty, they knew the dangers. But he was responsible. But not even just that Zuma, he he he feels responsible for what? The massacre of his friends. And he accepted.
00:23:13:14 - 00:23:14:16
Rachel
Death? Yes.
00:23:14:16 - 00:23:36:05
Ryan
He accepted his own death to only not only did he not die, but somehow the war was over and everyone herald him. Someone who fought on the line as a hero. And that gives him this complex because he knows in his brain, in his interpretation, he wasn't a hero. He chose what is.
00:23:36:07 - 00:23:36:22
Rachel
Will be.
00:23:36:22 - 00:23:47:24
Ryan
To a soldier, one of the weaker ways to guard, which is kill yourself. It's still like a sacrifice, but like he chose, well, I'm not going to win this. There's no there's no win here, so I might as well take them down.
00:23:47:24 - 00:23:59:02
Rachel
Surrendered to death in that moment at the line. Because that was what he could try and do, was to go down fighting.
00:23:59:02 - 00:24:09:24
Ryan
And then he gets heralded as a hero. And from that point on, until now, Earth itself has this weird, complex about the war where they.
00:24:10:02 - 00:24:19:03
Rachel
Say one, but they they they didn't they didn't win because they defeated the other side. The other side decided to surrender.
00:24:19:04 - 00:24:34:14
Ryan
But also the juxtaposition he has of the military, people know that they didn't win because of the line, but the rest of the people, like Carolyn and the fellow citizens of Earth, think that they they thought that the line was a good thing.
00:24:34:14 - 00:24:49:01
Rachel
They wouldn't know any different. And of course, that would be the history that Earth promotes about itself. Yeah, because otherwise the threat of the Minbari coming back.
00:24:49:02 - 00:25:07:14
Ryan
Would linger forever. And and also when you then he he's chucked into this position of being the commander where he has to play the diplomat when this is a guy who was a soldier who accepted death, it didn't happen. And now everyone praises him as a hero. And he doesn't believe that he's a hero because he didn't win the war.
00:25:07:18 - 00:25:30:07
Ryan
The war was handed to them because they surrendered. And why did they do that? Well, we'll find out as the show goes along and all that stuff is present in Michael, his performance, we don't even need. I mean, we do, but like that monologue that he gives in that conversation with Carolyn shines a light on these odd moments in the previous scenes where you go, wait, wait, why is he doing this?
00:25:30:07 - 00:25:49:16
Ryan
Why is he acting like that? Why did he deliver his lines like this? Once you think about it from that perspective, every choice to me that Michael O'Hare makes as an actor, as Sinclair binds up, I think he's great in this pilot. I think he was a shining beacon here. We never had a chance. This guy was.
00:25:49:16 - 00:25:52:08
Speaker 3
Full of stars and every star.
00:25:52:08 - 00:25:57:09
Unknown
And exploding ship. One of ours.
00:25:57:11 - 00:26:00:01
Speaker 3
My team was blown out of the sky in less than a minute.
00:26:00:03 - 00:26:21:03
Ryan
I find him charming. I think Sinclair is a is a is a smooth talking, charming guy who loses year in with this kind of low energy where he seems pretty zen, but he's pretty fucked up. Like Sinclair is like a bad boy. He's a bad boy. He does a lot of shifty shit. And I love his conversation with G'Kar at the end.
00:26:21:03 - 00:26:41:13
Ryan
When he poisons, poisons, he puts the nanomachines in the drinks. But he didn't actually. And I felt like that's a character I want to follow. I want to follow this character who seems like he's a nice, diplomatic guy, but he will look you dead in the eyes and be like, I've got you, okay, you're mine. And if anything goes the way I don't want it to go, you're dead.
00:26:41:15 - 00:26:54:12
Ryan
Okay. And then reveal that was a play he's figured out by the end of this movie how to, better play the diplomat and the soldier. How to better play the the peacekeeper and the tactician.
00:26:54:12 - 00:27:12:10
Rachel
And we see him playing with that and trying to balance that when he's doing the hostage situation with the dust dealer, because he's very upfront, clear, diplomatic. And then it switches when he's got the upper hand.
00:27:12:11 - 00:27:13:21
Ryan
Once he's got the power.
00:27:13:23 - 00:27:22:07
Rachel
It's like, oh, you fuck right off. And if we ever see you again, we will blow you out of the sky.
00:27:22:10 - 00:27:36:23
Ryan
And that, you know what? Bring that up. That ties into Carolyn's point when he feels as if he does not have the power in the situation, he submits to that surrender, just like he did at the at the line.
00:27:36:23 - 00:27:59:07
Rachel
Which is a very military thing of like, if you are in charge of the situation, you have control and you take charge of what you are in charge of and who is under you. But if you are in the situation where somebody is higher rank than you, you look.
00:27:59:13 - 00:28:00:23
Ryan
Up, you submit.
00:28:01:00 - 00:28:01:23
Rachel
You submit.
00:28:02:02 - 00:28:21:14
Ryan
But we're talking about like he's applying this kind of attitude in situations where you know, this, not this is an alien soldier fleet, but he's submitting in a lot of ways. And Carolyn calls him out on that. And that's where we get the turning point, where he goes, no, I've got to have that bad boy attitude in more situations.
00:28:21:14 - 00:28:27:02
Ryan
Not all the time. That's the important thing. He's not like he walks around being like a fuckhead the whole movie. You know.
00:28:27:06 - 00:28:27:17
Rachel
He walks.
00:28:27:17 - 00:28:41:22
Ryan
Around going, no, I'm going to take my story. I'm going to take my story. I'm not going to let Jaka rule over me. I'm not going to let this and that. I'm actually going to look at it myself and actually do. So I'm going to be the protagonist of the story.
00:28:42:00 - 00:28:45:16
Rachel
And Londo is a very interesting foil to that.
00:28:45:21 - 00:29:00:18
Ryan
Because the other great character that makes The Gathering also worth watching is Peter Jurassic as Londo Mallory, because, well, I wouldn't say he's fully realized in the way that we will see him because the actor himself is still figuring out the.
00:29:00:18 - 00:29:03:13
Rachel
Character, but he second to Sinclair.
00:29:03:15 - 00:29:32:04
Ryan
I think it's because Peter Jurassic is still figuring out this character, but from a writing perspective, like hearing his lines of dialog and the way he switches around, like being a goofy character, being serious one James instantly got Londo down on the page. I think Londo on paper is the exact same, fully realized, but I think Peter Jurassic is still figuring out, like the hair, the accent, the mannerisms, the pronunciation through his accent and the type of energy he plays.
00:29:32:04 - 00:29:45:10
Ryan
But that is not to discredit him. He is, still, an energetic presence that you want to watch here, but he's definitely one of those actors where you see him grow into Londo Mallory. Oh, very and smoothly.
00:29:45:13 - 00:29:49:11
Rachel
Perfect way to put it. He grows into Londo.
00:29:49:13 - 00:29:52:07
Ryan
But I think the script always knew who. London.
00:29:52:08 - 00:29:59:10
Rachel
Yeah, like. Yeah, like Peter needed to grow into Londo. Londo didn't need to grow or to change.
00:29:59:16 - 00:30:01:07
Ryan
He does. But, you know, like. Yeah.
00:30:01:08 - 00:30:09:15
Rachel
No, but, like, I mean, like, in terms of, like, setting up the character like Londo is arc is phenomenal.
00:30:09:18 - 00:30:13:01
Speaker 3
My God, man.
00:30:13:03 - 00:30:22:17
Speaker 3
We've become a tourist attraction. See, the great Centauri Republic opened 9 to 5 Earth time.
00:30:22:22 - 00:30:29:09
Ryan
Londo here is his goofy Clowney guy. And he has so many funny moments and.
00:30:29:10 - 00:30:41:06
Rachel
So many sad moments like, yeah, the word that I kept on thinking like, oh, I just. Londo is so pathetic.
00:30:41:12 - 00:30:49:09
Ryan
The word I just kept thinking of in my brain. And this is from the rewatch perspective, is inevitable.
00:30:49:11 - 00:30:49:20
Rachel
Yeah.
00:30:49:20 - 00:31:19:16
Ryan
It's this there's a sense of inevitability with him when you rewatch the show, because this is a guy who's this drunken, clownish guy. But underneath all that, he is this melancholic figure who is ignorant of what colonialism effects actually are, and he glorifies them and romanticizes them. But he's also self-aware enough to because in this he references his own family's atrocities, and he knows that that's bad.
00:31:19:16 - 00:31:36:01
Rachel
But you still see is manipulated by somebody exploiting. Yeah, how much he cares about image and vision of himself, as well as the Centauri Empire, which is so important.
00:31:36:01 - 00:32:02:07
Ryan
The Republic, this entire public, it's the fallen empire. And for some reason, I didn't remember the Minbari Federation. I didn't remember that they were called them in binary Federation. I don't know if that transfers onwards. I think they usually just call them the Minbari. I don't remember the Federation aspect, but. Yeah. And the non regime, and Earth Force, Earth Alliance, but yeah, like, you know, this is.
00:32:02:09 - 00:32:12:23
Ryan
Yeah. This is sad inevitability with Londo because he doesn't understand it, and he feels trapped. That's what makes him great. He's he's self-aware. He knows what.
00:32:13:03 - 00:32:14:02
Rachel
Shocks.
00:32:14:04 - 00:32:24:18
Ryan
The shock speech, and he knows so much about himself, yet he feels like he doesn't have any choices available to him. He feels as if he's just a bystander and that he's.
00:32:24:18 - 00:32:26:11
Rachel
Got a hitch. His wagon?
00:32:26:11 - 00:32:52:00
Ryan
Yeah, he's just going to go with the flow. Takes him because his days of being able to make an impact on the world around him has faded away. Just like the Centauri Republic's. And, impact on the universe has faded away. You know, we used to own this quadrant. Now what do we have? Just 12 planets and, you know, thousands of statues of monuments and thousands of monuments and all of that.
00:32:52:00 - 00:32:53:05
Ryan
And, like, that's what he thinks.
00:32:53:05 - 00:32:56:00
Rachel
He's still thinking 9 to 5. Yeah.
00:32:56:00 - 00:33:16:03
Ryan
It's time in and he is a fascinating character because he and Sinclair don't struggle from what the other characters unfortunately do struggle from, which is they are allowed to have arcs.
00:33:16:05 - 00:33:17:11
Rachel
That actually define the.
00:33:17:11 - 00:33:21:04
Ryan
Gathering within the gathering and character full moments.
00:33:21:04 - 00:33:21:21
Rachel
Yes.
00:33:21:23 - 00:33:52:14
Ryan
There are lots of characterful moments. Yes, Londo is giving us lore and exposition, but it feels natural from him. It feels like. And not just because of Jurassic, but the character is so self-reflective, so longing for the days of yesteryear. So when he gives us these speeches, yes, it's interesting. Worldbuilding in law, but it's telling you so much about Londo Malory himself that he's this sad old man who thinks that there's no hope anymore for him.
00:33:52:16 - 00:34:21:13
Ryan
And Sinclair has a lot of stuff, too, like the monologue. And the Sky was full of stars. A line that really got me, really hit me in the gut with this watching of it because of Michael, his line delivery and just we know from this speech alone that's about to be built up. He's he's he's, PTSD that he clearly has is when Carolyn says to him, like, you fought on the line, like the big be all and end all of the earth and Barry and you didn't tell me.
00:34:21:13 - 00:34:57:10
Ryan
And he just says, I didn't want to talk about it, and I don't like talking about it. That really got me. I was like, Jesus. It felt so, like, honest. And that's and that's what makes Londo stand out, too. He feels like an honest character and not like himself as a character, but me watching him, I feel like James is tapping into, like an honesty that a lot of people have within themselves of looking at the past with these rose tinted glasses, thinking that things were better back in the day when I was young and had things available to me, and that the atrocities that worked out for me may that means that they were
00:34:57:10 - 00:34:58:03
Ryan
good.
00:34:58:04 - 00:34:59:02
Rachel
Yeah.
00:34:59:04 - 00:35:01:20
Ryan
That's you know, and we understand that especially.
00:35:01:20 - 00:35:04:18
Rachel
Because my decisions are justified.
00:35:04:20 - 00:35:20:12
Ryan
Yeah. And, my, my family's heritage and lineage is, was was good because it worked out for me. Yeah. My grandfather committed atrocities and that's bad. And it would only hurt me now because people would use it politically against me. But it served my family well. Yeah.
00:35:20:14 - 00:35:41:16
Speaker 3
Jacob offered me in exchange my cooperation in return for evidence showing that during our rule of the non homeworld, certain atrocities were committed by my grandmother. You know about this? Of course I know. But what's done is done. Why bring it up now?
00:35:41:19 - 00:36:02:10
Ryan
I would say that one of the major issues with the gathering that makes it a tough experience to watch is that it chooses exposition over character. I could not tell you who Garibaldi is as a character via this alone.
00:36:02:11 - 00:36:16:23
Rachel
Garibaldi has so few moments where it feels like his character, has anything to him. There's no meat.
00:36:17:03 - 00:36:28:02
Ryan
We're told a lot about him, but I don't feel like we experience a lot, and that's most of the other characters. I could not tell you why G'Kar does the things he does, other than the.
00:36:28:02 - 00:36:29:07
Rachel
Son needs.
00:36:29:07 - 00:36:47:22
Ryan
A nefarious character to generate drama. Yeah, I could not tell you. What. What? He. Why he does the things he does in the next episode. I can tell you why he does the things he does here. They hint and they tell us they used to be enslaved by the Centauri, but that doesn't feel like it's a motivating factor for him being a dick in this movie.
00:36:47:22 - 00:36:48:20
Ryan
The only reason.
00:36:48:21 - 00:36:50:18
Rachel
Especially how much of.
00:36:50:18 - 00:37:11:17
Ryan
A dick he is. Yeah, the only reason he feels like he's a dick in this is because we need the red herring character. We need the character that is tied to the murder mystery plot in some way. Like, I could not tell you who who, Doctor Kyle is. Couldn't tell you what kind of guy he is. I know what he does, but I don't know his character.
00:37:11:19 - 00:37:13:10
Rachel
Yeah.
00:37:13:12 - 00:37:18:16
Ryan
I know that he's a good man who's willing to break the rules to do the right thing.
00:37:18:16 - 00:37:19:10
Rachel
Yes.
00:37:19:12 - 00:37:43:11
Ryan
But I don't really feel like I got to know him all that well. I know that the actor was trying. He had some energy in there, but characters like Londo and Sinclair, they were allowed to have character filled moments, arcs, journeys, these asides that makes them memorable. But here I know who Garibaldi is as a character in the show, but if I just watch this alone, he would be a blip.
00:37:43:11 - 00:37:44:11
Ryan
He would be nothing to me.
00:37:44:16 - 00:37:51:06
Rachel
It's like, oh yeah, chief of security. That's. Yeah, that's Garibaldi, right? Yeah.
00:37:51:08 - 00:38:13:00
Ryan
That's that's Garibaldi. And, yeah, the exposition. How do you feel about it? Because, you know, we take this for granted, but this is the first thing James is trying to set up this very complex world. Is it a necessary evil? Like we have to have the exposition? Or do you think it could have been doled out better?
00:38:13:02 - 00:38:41:01
Rachel
I think it could have been doled out better, but only if they knew that they were going to get the first season because a lot of the exposition that's included that isn't entirely necessary for the plot of The Gathering is to try and set up intrigue that's going to link into IDs. Yeah, that are in the main series.
00:38:41:03 - 00:39:02:13
Ryan
Yeah, it's selling itself. And that is what is a downfall of watching The Gathering is a lot a large swaths of it doesn't feel like this is a story somebody wanted to tell with characters that they wanted. It felt like this is a story somebody wanted to sell, with characters they wanted to sell. And it makes it a lackluster experience.
00:39:02:13 - 00:39:18:12
Ryan
When Reavis hitting this particular one because, yeah, like, I love I love Jaka. He's one of my absolute favorite characters. I love Andre's cut Silas's performance in this. It's so hammy and so over-the-top. And we got this love. Oh.
00:39:18:14 - 00:39:20:07
Rachel
Cute little gems.
00:39:20:07 - 00:39:23:16
Ryan
And the hand movements and his head tilts and.
00:39:23:22 - 00:39:24:12
Rachel
00:39:24:14 - 00:39:26:06
Ryan
You go. Love the pleasure threshold scene.
00:39:26:06 - 00:39:28:05
Rachel
Oh, it's iconic.
00:39:28:08 - 00:39:34:14
Ryan
It's one of the funniest scenes in the whole, in the whole show. To me. I always think about the pleasure threshold scene. It never leaves my mind.
00:39:34:14 - 00:39:38:15
Rachel
But you often forget the VIPs from the gathering.
00:39:38:17 - 00:40:07:23
Ryan
Yeah, because it just feels like so iconic. He's characterization. He is fun, but there's nothing to him. On the script of why his characterization is this, other than we have to have the evil guy on the show. Yeah. Why? Why is he evil? What's his motivations other than he's greedy and likes power and being a dick? There is none in this in this movie, and so I wouldn't be interested in seeing him more regularly because we need more than that.
00:40:07:23 - 00:40:10:02
Ryan
And there is no more than that in here.
00:40:10:03 - 00:40:16:21
Speaker 3
We have unlimited manpower and the will to use it. Can you imagine what we could achieve together?
00:40:16:23 - 00:40:31:22
Rachel
I can, which is why it must never be allowed to happen. Your perceptions are colored by your history with the Centauri as former slaves of that government, you would seize any opportunity to raise a force against them.
00:40:31:22 - 00:40:35:07
Speaker 3
We were never slaves. Our world was invaded. Our people.
00:40:35:07 - 00:41:08:20
Rachel
The world was ill chosen. Right? Apologies. A lot of these scenes are overburdened with exposition because they are trying so hard to sell the show. They want to go from a pilot to a full season, and obviously that didn't happen right away. But when you're watching this on, it's R and that issue makes the pacing even worse.
00:41:08:22 - 00:41:10:22
Ryan
Yeah, the pacing is it's.
00:41:10:22 - 00:41:21:10
Rachel
Not good overall. Because too many things are fighting for your attention.
00:41:21:12 - 00:41:32:04
Ryan
And yet most of them aren't fleshed out enough to be interesting on their own. Like Londo and Sinclair are fleshed out enough to be interesting, but you know, laeta.
00:41:32:06 - 00:41:51:13
Rachel
Yeah. Like there isn't enough because there's too much. Which is a very strange problem for this movie to have. And when you try and think about it, you're like, oh maybe they could have shifted this part or.
00:41:51:18 - 00:41:52:06
Ryan
Excised.
00:41:52:06 - 00:42:07:11
Rachel
This from this. And then you end up with a totally different story and you realize that they have all of these parts because they wanted all of these things in the show. So they tried to put them in the pilot to.
00:42:07:17 - 00:42:09:01
Ryan
Prove.
00:42:09:03 - 00:42:12:07
Rachel
That it all of these things were worth having.
00:42:12:09 - 00:42:37:17
Ryan
Yeah. And the pacing is also majorly affected by the overall direction of the show. I found the direction to be very wonky. There's lots of empty space in terms of edits like just lingering shots where I'm like, you could cut this quicker. And I'm not saying this from a modern perspective of things being edited quicker, like I've seen other shows from this era, and they're just some awkward moments where they just linger too long and I'm like, cut.
00:42:37:17 - 00:42:49:05
Ryan
Like there are scenes. They're just whole scenes here that that, you could just remove because all they're there for is to set up stuff that will happen next season. And again, that's part of the selling aspect of selling one of.
00:42:49:07 - 00:43:21:11
Rachel
Many moments and decisions. You will like well that's just because you're an experienced. Yeah. Like it doesn't seem like the editor didn't care because some scenes are really well constructed and put together really well. It and other ones feel a bit haphazard or janky in different ways, like.
00:43:21:12 - 00:43:43:24
Ryan
It just feels like it's overstuffed in a lot of ways. Yeah, they're trying to get this to the runtime it needs to be, and it's even overstuffed in terms of, the esthetic and the world butting like the it's aping so much off of pre-established sci fi things that it's, it's ignoring accidentally or not realizing its own identity as well as it could.
00:43:44:00 - 00:43:50:04
Ryan
We've got sci fi aliens that look like they're from Star Wars or Planet of the apes. We got them fighting like Blade Runner.
00:43:50:05 - 00:43:52:22
Rachel
I don't like the Blade Runner. Look, no.
00:43:52:22 - 00:44:09:13
Ryan
I didn't like the Blade Runner look, either. I found it very distracting. We we got, lots of scenes that, like a, a military procedural show instead of what we like and what we've talked about, which is the political stuff, the.
00:44:09:16 - 00:44:14:17
Rachel
Which is political and a launch of what the show becomes.
00:44:14:19 - 00:44:32:20
Ryan
I think, like, there are so many episodes in the show where you could describe the plot as, Franklin has to operate on a kid, but he doesn't have the permission from their parents. And that sounds like, oh, that's a medical drama, right? No, it's not just a medical drama. It spirals out of control and becomes a political crisis in a lot of ways.
00:44:33:00 - 00:44:50:01
Ryan
And that's what this is missing underneath all of this is this lame, a murder mystery plot where you don't care because you don't know any of the characters well enough for them to be viable suspects. And even if they are, even if they reveal that Jaka was a killer, I don't care.
00:44:50:05 - 00:44:51:00
Rachel
And you know, because.
00:44:51:00 - 00:44:52:07
Ryan
I don't know him very.
00:44:52:07 - 00:44:57:17
Rachel
Well in the long run. What a bunch of these characters disappear.
00:44:57:18 - 00:45:16:06
Ryan
A bunch of these characters disappear. So you also have less of an attachment on a rewatch because you just know that these are placeholders. And this isn't the pilot's fault when they made this, but it does affect a rewatch. It does affect it when you look back upon it and go, oh, that's Doctor Kyle. He's kind of.
00:45:16:08 - 00:45:17:09
Rachel
The.
00:45:17:11 - 00:45:26:10
Ryan
As like I said, and Tuck Shim is kind of in a vulnerable character, an old lens, not necessarily like this sly spiritual lady.
00:45:26:11 - 00:46:03:12
Rachel
Like this, know her pieces of the puzzle that are there, and it's hard to see this as being even fine because like, I really struggle with appreciating the gathering on its own. I just kind, as I showed you everything that's here, as how it links and relates to those five seasons and how it's just like, okay, well, that character is no longer there.
00:46:03:12 - 00:46:19:05
Rachel
So they given this storyline to this character, this trait to this person, and they've added in this other character and given them this part. When it becomes relevant down the line. But because it isn't needed in these other characters or these other stories.
00:46:19:05 - 00:46:37:20
Ryan
Yeah. And again, that ties into the issue of this isn't serving the story or characters in the way that it needs to. It's serving, the, the series getting picked up, which again, we know it's a pilot that's a part of the point. But there are pilots that I've watched that I think do a better job of being fun enough on their own.
00:46:37:20 - 00:46:55:18
Ryan
But you also understand that they exist as a business thing. We've got to sell this. We got to get this here. Like also, it's just too goofy. It's trying to juggle being the serious, gritty show. Yeah, but then you have a monkey, man, Bart, and, you have Laurel Takashima saying it's stuff.
00:46:55:18 - 00:47:00:12
Rachel
Jaka having Gil in play, calling Gil implants.
00:47:00:12 - 00:47:20:03
Ryan
And that again, ties into they didn't know what the sci fi universe was because then Dylan has these magical rings that have gravity powers, and it feels like, okay, you're presenting to me on one hand, this Sinclair side story with Earth and all that, that feels like really grounded and really well realized and like, we carry our baggage into the stars.
00:47:20:03 - 00:47:29:05
Ryan
But then also you have magic in the show. So is this a show with magic? No, not really like magic gravity rings. They like.
00:47:29:07 - 00:47:31:12
Rachel
They have crystals.
00:47:31:16 - 00:47:35:07
Ryan
They have crystals, the data crystals. But they're still they just USBs.
00:47:35:07 - 00:48:05:02
Rachel
Here is a copy of everything I had which may be of use if anyone asks, say it fell from the sky. And a lot of the problems that we identify forward with the gathering is can be started off with, oh look, it's okay, but it's really unbalanced in this way and it's unbalanced in this and it's unbalanced in that.
00:48:05:02 - 00:48:35:16
Rachel
And they didn't really know. So it doesn't have a balance of tone. It doesn't have the balance of pacing, doesn't have a balance of exposition versus character movement. It's not equally or fairly equitably distributed between all of these pieces, that they have on the playing board. So it just ends up feeling messy and lopsided.
00:48:35:16 - 00:48:55:15
Ryan
It exactly. That's exactly it. There are characters here that didn't make it into the series because again, it has a long gap there. They're going to be actors who drop out because they have other commitments and or they wanted different people to play different roles. Or maybe they thought, this character isn't working. I'll create another version of it that will work.
00:48:55:17 - 00:49:22:13
Ryan
Whatever the excuses are, none of the characters that don't make it except for Carolyn are compelling in this story to me. Talk to Kyle and Takashima. They're interesting in the fact that they will be reconfigured into characters. I do like, but in this they were nothing to me. Takashima was embarrassing to me. If anything, she was my least favorite.
00:49:22:15 - 00:49:43:24
Ryan
I thought her performance was too corny. I didn't believe her as this Korean military woman who's who's lived on Mars during the food riots. Any of that, all I saw was a young actress in a costume pretending to be tougher than she was. But she just doesn't have that energy to her. She feels like too much of a nice person.
00:49:44:01 - 00:49:55:08
Ryan
So when she says, like she's doing the military thing against someone like Jaka, I'm just seeing a woman being overshadowed by a much more, much more honed in actor than herself.
00:49:55:08 - 00:49:57:01
Rachel
A seasoned performer.
00:49:57:06 - 00:50:02:07
Ryan
And I'm not saying that this woman is bad actress. I've seen her in other things. She's been good, but I don't think she was well cast in this.
00:50:02:07 - 00:50:03:11
Rachel
Role as Commander.
00:50:03:11 - 00:50:20:10
Ryan
Oh, Commodore. Oh, please. Oh, my favorite Star Trek Picard character. She was so dedicated to her role that she just gave up at the end for no reason, but I. I thought she was miscast. Yeah, or they didn't give her a good enough story. Little lines in the script.
00:50:20:10 - 00:50:22:17
Rachel
You know who I think was really miscast?
00:50:22:17 - 00:50:23:15
Ryan
Who?
00:50:23:17 - 00:50:35:03
Rachel
The actress who plays Lita Alexander. Yeah. For that, for the where that character was like. Lita. When does she comes back and she's changed.
00:50:35:08 - 00:50:36:02
Ryan
She's great.
00:50:36:04 - 00:50:51:04
Rachel
She's great. But it doesn't get enough time to really be fleshed out. If what she was doing was on purpose. The way that we see Sinclair's decision.
00:50:51:06 - 00:50:51:16
Ryan
She's.
00:50:51:17 - 00:51:08:01
Rachel
She's like is it like you get the idea that she's not really comfortable in this cycle, but she still talking and acting like she is. But it it doesn't feel right.
00:51:08:05 - 00:51:30:03
Ryan
Patricia Tallman is was at this time more especially a stunt person. This is, I think, one of her more, fully, fully like, formed acting roles, like, she was in like, a night of the Living Dead stuff, I guess, the remake of it. So I'm not saying she hasn't been around, but she's much more of a was much more of a physical performer.
00:51:30:03 - 00:51:51:18
Ryan
Stunt performer. And I think she just didn't know how to, at this point, play, cold. I think that's it. She doesn't know how to convincingly played like, play like a, a cold character. Basically, she doesn't know how to play a Nazi lady who's in the cycle as well as the woman who plays Talia Winters does. But I also have that glimmer of there's a human underneath that.
00:51:51:18 - 00:51:58:16
Ryan
That's that's a tough it's a tough thing to balance. And I don't think she she comes across like a robot at times a little bit too much.
00:51:58:18 - 00:52:07:02
Rachel
When Talia takes off her gloves, it's a big deal. It feels heavy, feels important.
00:52:07:02 - 00:52:09:14
Ryan
But mainly we've had seasons of build up for that.
00:52:09:18 - 00:52:28:19
Rachel
But here it just feels like, why do I care? She's just taken a glove off. Why the fuck is the camera lingering? And she's looking like it's kind of painful for her to do? Oh yeah, well, why do I care?
00:52:28:20 - 00:52:54:24
Ryan
But then you see why they hired her when she beats the fuck out of Doctor Kyle. That's why they like that moment where she's doing all the stunts and whatever. She was great. You're like, oh, this is a stunning woman. I remember her as a stunt person in Star Trek. Yeah, that's right. And I'm glad that in a way, she got time to be away from the show, do some more, acting roles, be a bit more active, and then come back to a character that was different to this one because, again, I agree.
00:52:54:24 - 00:53:18:07
Ryan
I don't think she's she's the greatest here, but I think she is pretty great when she does return acting wise. So, this is one of those weird things to where, yeah, the characterizations of people are off and you don't like, you know, why for some. And you don't know why for others. And Leda, I just think it's because she wasn't as experienced, of an actress yet.
00:53:18:09 - 00:53:29:14
Rachel
She's the one he tried to kill the best. I saw it, I saw it.
00:53:29:16 - 00:53:39:00
Ryan
Would you say it's a good place to start off? If you're watching Babylon five The Gathering, is it a good starting position?
00:53:39:02 - 00:53:51:00
Rachel
Not really, I would. I would suggest starting with episode one of season one. However, the gathering I agree.
00:53:51:00 - 00:53:56:02
Ryan
I think that The Gathering. You should watch it at least once, at least once.
00:53:56:04 - 00:54:10:21
Rachel
But after, like you might just wait until after season one and then go back. Or you might do what I did. And after you've watched the Five Seasons, you go back to it.
00:54:10:23 - 00:54:11:13
Ryan
Yeah, I.
00:54:11:13 - 00:54:20:07
Rachel
Think, but it is a far less,
00:54:20:09 - 00:54:20:21
Ryan
00:54:20:21 - 00:54:24:18
Rachel
Serviceable entry point than the next episode.
00:54:24:18 - 00:54:46:02
Ryan
It's baggy, I would say definitely watch it at least once, but I think I understand why if people watched this and they didn't want to pick up watching the rest of this show because it is it is a drag. It is slow, it is plodding. It's tonally a bit inconsistent. But I would also say that you should at least watch it after watching a bit of the first season.
00:54:46:02 - 00:55:02:10
Ryan
I think you watch it around the time of the episode, cold and the Sky was full of stars, I think because by then you warmed up to these characters and you specifically know more about Sinclair and that and this movie, you know, it still exists, is still mad as a reference at a lot. But, you know.
00:55:02:12 - 00:55:08:23
Rachel
And we would specifically suggest that you try and watch the original cut.
00:55:09:00 - 00:55:15:04
Ryan
You don't like this cut? I this cut I think is better. The TV cut, I think it's better.
00:55:15:06 - 00:55:37:02
Rachel
It's weird because overall I do think that it's a better one, but I don't like the Valen line being added in a little bit less. Yeah, it's like it's just a bit too much. And I wish that the line speech from Sinclair was the.
00:55:37:02 - 00:55:38:17
Ryan
Just him out back.
00:55:38:19 - 00:55:39:21
Rachel
But right out of.
00:55:39:21 - 00:55:47:07
Ryan
It, you you you you will forget you've forgotten the terribly awful music of the.
00:55:47:07 - 00:55:48:24
Rachel
Original. Oh, yeah. The music.
00:55:48:24 - 00:55:50:10
Ryan
Of the original was like a fucking.
00:55:50:13 - 00:55:54:20
Rachel
Nightmare that there was a a version which, you.
00:55:54:20 - 00:55:55:19
Ryan
Know, you can.
00:55:55:21 - 00:55:57:12
Rachel
Make just.
00:55:57:12 - 00:56:02:00
Ryan
You know, hit up James to get some, original negatives, and you can make that happen.
00:56:02:04 - 00:56:05:06
Rachel
Oh, no, I could just splice together lots of.
00:56:05:07 - 00:56:15:01
Ryan
Gems and be like, hey, James, could you, like, give us the music and the negatives and we'll put it together. We'll we'll we'll do it for free.
00:56:15:03 - 00:56:22:02
Rachel
Ryan, usually, at this point when we were doing discovery, we would start talking about Hugh.
00:56:22:08 - 00:56:23:05
Ryan
Yes.
00:56:23:07 - 00:56:33:19
Rachel
Now, Hugh is barely a character in discovery, and he is not a character in Babylon five.
00:56:33:21 - 00:56:37:22
Ryan
So the Hugh Da would still be pretty good to keep doing right, because.
00:56:37:22 - 00:56:38:19
Rachel
He's doing.
00:56:38:21 - 00:56:48:23
Ryan
His impact as a character in this show in which he doesn't exist is pretty much 1 to 1 with discovery, where he actually is an episode. So but so this week on the Hugh. Duh.
00:56:48:23 - 00:56:50:21
Rachel
Oh no no no no no, doctor.
00:56:50:21 - 00:56:57:05
Ryan
Carl was more of a character than who he actually served a function. He was a doctor. I understood what he was doing.
00:56:57:07 - 00:57:03:01
Rachel
Right. Ryan. No, no, what what we decided is flutes.
00:57:03:03 - 00:57:13:05
Ryan
That was a pretty, pretty good character in comparison to Hugh Cobham. Affected the plot more, affected me. I laughed when I saw that flute I was laughing to from from side to side.
00:57:13:05 - 00:57:16:02
Rachel
The monkey bar tent is had more to do than Hugh did.
00:57:16:04 - 00:57:17:12
Ryan
They did?
00:57:17:14 - 00:57:29:11
Rachel
No. Well, he decided to do was much as watching Babylon five is going to be a positive experiences show that we like, we love.
00:57:29:13 - 00:57:30:11
Ryan
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:30:13 - 00:57:41:12
Rachel
Very much. It's one of our favorite shows. We rewatch it every couple of years, so we want to keep the ball rolling and talk about positive.
00:57:41:14 - 00:57:42:00
Ryan
Yes.
00:57:42:01 - 00:57:55:07
Rachel
And we thought it would be interesting to pick out a actor who has a guest appearance in each episode and highlight them, and what they bring to the episode.
00:57:55:09 - 00:58:02:02
Ryan
And what they else have been in that people may have seen them in before. I have seen before, and what we've thought about them on our previous watch.
00:58:02:02 - 00:58:07:08
Rachel
Is what they contribute to the world of Babylon. Yes.
00:58:07:10 - 00:58:32:14
Ryan
Let's shine, actors spotlights upon them. Yes. They may not be the main cast members. Yes, they may only be in some scenes of an episode. But upon the rewatch, it's the small players, the minor players that help bring a certain energy and life to it. Yes, you get enraptured by Peter Jurassic and Andreas Solis when you watch Babylon five, but what about the guy who played Jenga?
00:58:32:14 - 00:58:42:11
Ryan
So, Ryan, what about him from from that episode of Grail? But who are we talking about for this one? Who we shining a spotlight on now?
00:58:42:13 - 00:58:57:18
Rachel
We are drawing some attention to a small character but pivotal, pivotal linchpin to the whole thing, though Lorna, played by John Fleck.
00:58:57:20 - 00:59:19:23
Ryan
John Fleck. I you know, when I watched this today for the pod, I saw Del Vanna and he made me laugh because they showed a zoomed in closer up of his identity card image and it was mommy. And he had a cheesy grin on his face, and it was extremely close up of his face. Like the card.
00:59:19:23 - 00:59:24:06
Ryan
They shot it with an extreme close up and I went, I fucking love this guy.
00:59:24:12 - 00:59:41:10
Rachel
This guy's a tech runner. He's like, I barely understand what a tech brother is. But when they explain it, I'm like, yeah, that's the kind of dude that would get into running illegal tech.
00:59:41:12 - 00:59:55:08
Ryan
And also, I mean this in the politest of ways Del Vanna. That's what the guy looks like. I'm like, I see your name and I know what he and he's a tech run. I think of a guy with greasy hair and there's John.
00:59:55:08 - 01:00:13:20
Rachel
Fleck and he just any and he fits in, he fits into the world. And you know like I see why he's been in so many things but also small things like he's very widely used television character actor.
01:00:13:24 - 01:00:18:22
Ryan
Especially for playing villainous or sleazeball characters and a lot of Star Trek.
01:00:19:03 - 01:00:23:13
Rachel
A lot of Star Trek. He's one of like 13 characters.
01:00:23:13 - 01:00:24:24
Ryan
Or actors.
01:00:25:01 - 01:00:25:24
Rachel
Or actors.
01:00:26:01 - 01:00:47:23
Ryan
That is in, every iteration of the modern trek from TNG to enterprise. In fact, enterprise is the one that he did the most work on. He had a more pivotal role as Cilic. People may remember that character, a temporal Cold War nonsense happening there. And he, I don't know how to describe his alien makeup design, but it's memorable.
01:00:47:23 - 01:01:07:16
Ryan
I would describe him kind of, the texture or color of him as kind of like a moss person. I know that's not exactly what he is, but I always think of him. My brain is a guy who's covered in moss. But I remember this guy, John Fleck. Not just for Del Vanna, but I will say when I do watch a gathering, I think Del Valle now, I'm like, what a weird little character.
01:01:07:16 - 01:01:32:04
Ryan
Because John Fleck is playing a guy playing Del Valle. And more than the original Del Vanna, he's playing a minbari guy pretending to be this guy. And, you know, knowing that watching it, you could see that. Yeah, you could actually see that this guy's figuring out like, what attitude he's going to be as Del Vaughn or like, I'm going to be more menacing.
01:01:32:04 - 01:01:37:18
Ryan
No, no, no, I'm going to be nice and fun. And you know, I think that was cute.
01:01:37:20 - 01:01:38:24
Rachel
Layers.
01:01:39:01 - 01:01:47:04
Ryan
But I know him for the Michael Douglas film Falling Down as you're shocked to hear it. Sleazy homeless man and wait.
01:01:47:04 - 01:01:47:21
Rachel
Wait, man.
01:01:47:22 - 01:01:50:17
Ryan
I know guy in the park. I know you.
01:01:50:19 - 01:02:01:18
Rachel
Should know that's not what you talk about when you talk about Del Valle. Know what? That. Well, not Dona John Fleck. Be honest. Ryan.
01:02:01:20 - 01:02:07:05
Ryan
Right. It's. It's how the doc he was pimples. Thank okay, I was John.
01:02:07:07 - 01:02:09:06
Rachel
I needed that honesty for me.
01:02:09:06 - 01:02:24:24
Ryan
I was trying to throw people off by saying. You remember him in that scene and falling down when he demands Michael Douglas gives him his suitcase because that's food. And he's been. Yeah, he's briefcase because he's he hasn't eaten in a week as he's eating a sandwich. You remember that guy and he grabs his apple out of the briefcase and he's like, what the hell's this?
01:02:24:24 - 01:02:42:22
Ryan
And throws it at Michael Douglas and Michael Douglas. Like, kicks the apple and perfectly timed, I'm sure. I'm sure I wanted to fool people. I wanted to lie to you and say everyone remembers him as this great character from an acclaimed film, but I actually remember him as pimples from how the doc the first MCU film.
01:02:42:24 - 01:02:45:22
Rachel
So that I have never watched.
01:02:45:24 - 01:02:51:16
Ryan
Well, next week on, Yum Yum, we are watching how the doc.
01:02:51:16 - 01:02:55:15
Speaker 3
That's it. No more Mr. Nice doc.
01:02:55:17 - 01:03:16:06
Ryan
What would you rate this? Our system of rating for people who are unfamiliar is yum is bad, and yum yum is good because let's not forget that non from Star Trek Discovery reply to a question with yum yum. And it was obviously the answer was an affirmative yes. So it was positive and thus mean no.
01:03:16:06 - 01:03:18:05
Rachel
Half yum is allowed.
01:03:18:05 - 01:03:20:19
Ryan
We don't allow half yams. No half yams here.
01:03:20:19 - 01:03:24:21
Rachel
Two two yum and yum yum yum yum.
01:03:25:02 - 01:03:51:09
Ryan
Yep. So Rachel gathering yum yum yum yum yum. It's a disappointing thing to say this, but I agree it's a yum yum. I love Babylon five, but this pilot, it just isn't. It isn't fun and it isn't interesting. And there's not enough there. The Londo and Sinclair stuff is great, but it's not enough to compel me to want to watch this.
01:03:51:14 - 01:03:55:06
Ryan
I would just watch their scenes. I would watch that monologue. I'd watch all of the monologues.
01:03:55:06 - 01:03:56:11
Rachel
Yeah, watch that monologue.
01:03:56:15 - 01:04:05:14
Ryan
But. Oh, you know, and obviously I'd want to watch the scene where the guy says, there is a hole in your mind. Yeah, great line delivery if we in performance, but great.
01:04:05:16 - 01:04:12:12
Rachel
He is like, I am going to milk every second that I am on screen.
01:04:12:15 - 01:04:24:06
Ryan
So next episode on our podcast of Yum Yum pod in which actually I want to make this clear for everyone. This is called Yum Yum five many people came up to me.
01:04:24:09 - 01:04:26:14
Rachel
Told me it was going to be yum alone.
01:04:26:14 - 01:04:49:01
Ryan
Thought I never said that. Many people have sent in emails, telegrams, pigeons saying we thought the show was going to be called yummy Yummy lone five or yum alone five or yummy long five. I'm sorry I've let you down. I've let myself down. I've let James Stone. I've let us all down. Because it's called yum yum five.
01:04:49:05 - 01:04:49:22
Rachel
Yeah, I've.
01:04:49:22 - 01:05:06:07
Ryan
Already branded everything. It's yum yum five. But let's live in the world in which we appreciate yum yum five and not get constantly disappointed that it isn't yummy. One five right? Next time on Yum Yum five Rachel. On the.
01:05:06:07 - 01:05:07:23
Speaker 3
Next Babylon five.
01:05:08:03 - 01:05:38:14
Ryan
We will be talking about season one, episode one midnight on the Firing Line. And instead of reading from IMDb, I'm reading from the booklet of the DVD, the descriptions written on the DVD, which are supremely amazing, and you'll soon find out why. So midnight on the firing Line is about, well, let's hear Will the space station that is the universe's last best hope give way to no Hope?
01:05:38:16 - 01:06:10:08
Ryan
Station leaders face the saber rattling of potential war when a mysterious attack on an agrarian planet, rogue S3, brings long festering hatreds between Centauri and non racers to a boil. So make sure everyone to watch that episode in the interim so that you're all caught up when we talk about it next time. Make sure while you're doing that though, to rate and review us on whatever pod capture you use and allows you to do so.
01:06:10:10 - 01:06:25:03
Ryan
There's a lot of the things, you know what? Sit down people. Get your pen and paper out. You got a little to do list. You got a little bit of homework for you. Okay. Are you following us on the social medias? If you know what ones are we on, Rachel? What ones should they follow us on? Because we're always posting.
01:06:25:03 - 01:06:27:04
Ryan
We're interacting. What should they do?
01:06:27:06 - 01:06:35:10
Rachel
Well, Facebook. Definitely Instagram. Yes. Yes. We have a subreddit.
01:06:35:11 - 01:06:36:06
Ryan
We have a Twitter.
01:06:36:07 - 01:06:37:12
Rachel
We have a Twitter.
01:06:37:14 - 01:06:46:11
Ryan
Yeah, we have all of this in the description. So if you're not following us on those people, make sure to do so. And Rachel, do we have a Patreon?
01:06:46:13 - 01:06:48:07
Rachel
Yes we do.
01:06:48:09 - 01:06:49:12
Ryan
What do we do on the.
01:06:49:14 - 01:06:59:22
Rachel
We provide you with lovely extra content, including, thoughts on general media, be that TV shows, more movie.
01:06:59:22 - 01:07:19:14
Ryan
Games, games, we also do a monthly show in which we are, going through the Star Trek movies. We also also have a show on there in which we talk about the top five and bottom five rated Star Trek episodes, according to IMDb, of any given series outside of the new stuff. So there is all of that.
01:07:19:14 - 01:07:38:17
Ryan
There. And please, please people, please, if you know people that need to listen to our show of people who are lovers of Babylon five or have an interest in hearing people discuss it, let them know about the show. Share the show around. We want to get as many years on here and we want to talk to you guys.
01:07:38:23 - 01:07:59:18
Ryan
Email us at Yum Yum pod@gmail.com will, you know, engage with us. What do you think about the things that we've said? What do you think about the gathering? Maybe we even read them out on the show and respond to, yeah. So all of this again is in the description of the episode. And if you don't do this, if you didn't sit down, write this all down and didn't do every single one of these, by the way.
01:07:59:22 - 01:08:00:22
Rachel
Don't no one.
01:08:01:01 - 01:08:02:20
Ryan
I'll know. I'll know that you didn't do.
01:08:02:20 - 01:08:16:16
Rachel
There is one final thing. What we both need to say. And the reminder. Yeah. And and, Wish you well. Oh, good evening to you.
01:08:16:18 - 01:08:23:13
Speaker 3
Good evening to you, Lieutenant Commander.
01:08:23:15 - 01:08:28:02
Speaker 3
This won't be a.