Yum Yum Podcast

Yum Yum Trek: Terra Firma, Part 2 - feat. Starfleet Underground

Episode Summary

Heather and Rocky from Starfleet Underground must face their biggest challenge yet! Convincing the hosts of Yum Yum Pod that Hitler can be redeemed. SUPPORT US: patreon.com/yumyumpod EMAIL US: yumyumpod@gmail.com FOLLOW US: Twitter: @YumYumPodcast Facebook: @YumYumPodcast Instagram: @yumyumpod Reddit: r/YumYumPodcast FOLLOW STARFLEET UNDERGROUND: Twitter: @StarfleetUnderG Facebook: @starfleetunderground Instagram: @starfleetunderground

Episode Notes

Welcome aboard the Starship Yum Yum in which we your intrepid hosts Ryan and Rachel Sliwinski along try to break down episodes of Star Trek: Discovery without having a breakdown ourselves. This week on Yum Yum Trek we are joined by Heather and Rocky from Starfleet Underground to discuss “Terra Firma, Part 2“ 
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Episode Transcription

hello rachel hello ryan how are you good how are you oh i'm feeling very very delicious i'm feeling sinister i'm feeling evil rachel how are you feeling you're not feeling weak are you you're not someone with compassion in your heart are you no oh good then i can trust you you're an evil person like me they're there it's all good um so rachel we're the yum yum podcast because of the iconic line of dialogue yum yum remember that line from star trek discovery how could i ever forget when you bring it up every week how could you forget do you remember who said it commander none no no no commander none d remember we learned her full name the d stands for something i don't know but we i was giving her the respect of her title you're right you're right commander remember when she was an engineer and that she never did any any engineering well everybody's got an engineering background that's a fair point does anyone in star trek discovery not have an engineering background that'll be something to discuss so we are star trek discovery re-watch podcast we are re-watching episodes of star trek discovery and giving our thoughts on them one episode at a time star trek discovery is one of those shows where it's jam-packed it wants you to look at all the details it wants you to re-watch it and uh your opinions of it may change once the full season is over once the big mystery box has been opened and we are looking at season three rachel but it's not just us two no we are not alone for this we had on a last episode some guests from the starfleet underground podcast we have them on and we have their other hosts on for this episode hello guys hello hey i'm loving i'm loving the mirror thing of this episode this is wonderful this leather shorts look really good on me oh yeah yeah yeah and my full beard has just become a goatee so i'm like looking really really hot right now yeah and i'm in my little dominatrix outfits right that chest here i mean i'm telling you yeah i don't normally have chest hair like this this is pretty sexy feathered cape for me oh yeah a feathered cape for rachel there so tell us about yourselves who you guys are and your show hi i'm heather ferris i am the science officer of the uss buetler we do the podcast star fleet underground and rocky i'm rocky the engineer of the show and the ship for starfleet underground and uh we have been known to have tribbles and they're so troublesome so with starfleet underground you guys obviously a star trek podcast but what kind of star trek do you guys discuss are you focusing on anything in particular are you kind of just all over the board what what what is what is starfleet under the kind that's not meant for kids do not let kids watch our podcast do not let them listen to our podcasts don't let them come anywhere near our podcast let them watch star trek all you want star trek is great for kids but don't let them hear our podcast uh because we take it a little adult themed sometimes sometimes we have we have a little fun with it did i mention the dribbles yeah they're pretty nasty oh yeah they like the ball gags too so you guys at the moment from my understanding are talking about star trek enterprise the most kid-friendly show of star trek might have had got lots of jelly oh yeah yeah you gotta love that jelly jelly yeah outfits rick does um so you guys are focusing on that but from my understanding of uh discussion with your other hosts you guys also talk about the more the modern iterations of star trek obviously there are there is none happening right now so you guys are focusing on what was previously the latest series of star trek enterprise it wasn't the latest series was the reason why they wanted to listen to it they wanted to torture me okay they wanted to like what is the what is the one epic uh series season whatever that we could use to totally torture heather let's do it my my motivation wasn't the torture heather purely maybe a little bit but totally because it is right yeah okay yeah it was all about territory together because we're mirror mode right now but uh no we watched uh we watched picard and that was awesome and we're watching discovery his discovery discoveries pretty cool new star trek is a lot of fun and then gosh lower decks at us and lower decks is wonderful and uh and then and then we hit this lull because of you know between covid and schedules it's like where's the star trek there's no new star trek let's watch some old star trek it just so happened that i was watching through all the series over the last couple years and i was it was you know it's been years since i actually got back to enterprise enterprise was the one that actually started my big rewatch of like the 2000s or whatever year it is now 20 20. um so that's what i picked i said enterprise which should be pretty fun to watch what do you guys think and the other guy said yeah sure another said no i made her do it anyway i don't associate the words fun and enterprise in the same sentence tradition says that whatever belonged to the previous captain is yours for the taking i've never been one to argue with tradition so let's get into our discussion we are covering terra firma part two so as we said this is a rewatch if people have not watched season three of discovery we will be talking spoilers about it because this is a part of the rewatch picking up all these little details seeing how those seeds were planted and seeing how they grow over the course of the episodes so um rocky could you please tell us what imdb has to say about this episode okay jorju uncovers the true depths of the plot against her leading her to a revelation about how deeply her time on the uss discovery truly changed her wow pretty short and to the point and i will say it is an app description of the episode rachel when we watched this episode originally we watched it back to back with the first part we weren't going week by week we we let some episodes just bleed out and watch them in chunks so what is your recollection about this episode how did you feel about it the first time and how do you feel about it now i remembered finding it generally boring because it had no particular stakes for me because i know i knew in my heart she was going to be fine she was going to be fine and that she was going to get sent back so she could do the section 31 show right right i remembered enjoying this a lot more than the first part on the original watch i remember despising the third act of this episode of this episode i'm not a big fan of the final scene of this episode but i remember when i first watched it i liked it a lot more than the first part because look i'm a sucker i enjoy the mirror universe i enjoyed spending time in it again and running around and having fun and seeing characters that we didn't get to see the first time their mirror verse counterparts and actually getting to see giorgio as a more fully formed character without her having to do action and quips all the time that was my first time viewing it um weirdly enough when discussing these parts i've kind of flipped i think i enjoyed the first part a lot more and this second part i felt myself a little aimless throughout it and still thinking to myself my biggest critique which is i don't think this needed to be a double act story i don't think this needed to be two parts i think you could have done this all in one part thus my enjoyment for this episode withered on the re-watch because as fun as it is to be in the mirror universe i've been there lots of times before not just in discovery but in deep space nine and an enterprise and so on and so forth so the mystique of the mirror universe kind of rubbed off on me this time around i was just like okay i i know i know it's it's cool but i this could have been one part uh heather how did you feel about this episode on the first watching and how does it how does it hold up it gave me chills and goosebumps and i was like oh my god this is so freaking awesome and i just i love this i really really love this this was one of the um top i don't know top three episodes in uh this season and i love giorgio and i love that they brought the guardian of forever back and when the gate like broke apart and came back together i just literally had goosebumps and i just love this nice what about you rocky how did you feel about terra firma a part two initially and how does it hold up for you well interesting uh well i loved it the first time around the first time around was amazing and uh and the first part of it was as well because they had the secret mirror universe thing nobody was expecting mirror universe again that was the biggest surprise and it was just like no not even a hint of it they just laid it right on you boom she's in the mirror universe like oh my god which was amazing and i will admit to re-watching the first part again too uh just to get into the second part again and the second part was i i i can detect the the the slowness of it that you guys are describing because it was a little bit differently paced but i have to admit seeing the other characters the other crew members doing things in this episode and uh the battles going on and the the cut throatness of it all that was awesome yeah yeah i i think what holds up for me on this re-watch is although i still think this didn't need to be two parts what i liked about this as an episode of discovery and i wish it did it more often is it was so focused on this story it didn't need to feel like how a lot of modern tv shows does which does discovery does do and game of thrones did do and so on and so forth where you have quick 30 second scenes and then you're ping to plot b and then ping to plot d and then pinged back to a and then to c it was nice to just follow this story although i'm not the biggest fan of giorgio as a character although it wasn't my favorite story in the season it was nice to actually have an episode be what i feel is just supremely focused on a story it felt settled and it felt like it really knew what it wanted to do yeah and it didn't feel like uh although there was chaotic things happening within her story it didn't feel like i was overloaded with adrenaline watching it like i am with other episodes in which you're just rushing around from scene to scene to scene to scene to scene to scene it was nice to just sit stew in the world of the mirror universe to stew with characters like jojo like the mirror michael like even the mirror detmo it was nice to just kind of sit and and kind of just experiencing it fold out where it just does hit the beats without having to ping back to admiral vance to ping back to to this story in this story and i liked that aspect of this episode i did feel like the action was well paced within it as well yeah yeah it didn't feel like it was relying on the action as much as previous episodes it felt like when there was action it made sense rather than we've hit this page mark in the script and we need an action scene here yeah yeah so i enjoy that about this i wish discovery would have more episodes like this in that particular regard of just having it not be afraid to not have so many other subplots going on i get it it's a big serialized show but even within these type of shows these episodes are spread throughout them and those are usually considered the best episodes of those of these modern prestige shows because it's just nice to to focus in sit down and watch the story unfold without having to think about all the subplots going on she will not return never this episode got off on the wrong foot for me when i initially watched it and on this watching i was disappointed in terms of the alternative opening credit sequence i don't know about you guys but i found it pretty cheap and lackluster that all they did was flip some things upside down and put the invert button on the editor hit two buttons they said click upside down click invert done next what what you want me to do something else i i got times oh no we gotta edit this other scene that's fine yeah they could have done so much more when enterprise visited the mirror world they made a whole damn different montage with different music and everything yeah that made that made sense with its own show like yeah if you know the star trek enterprise opening theme you see the mirror version of that and it's a perfect encapsulation of the opposite of that intro credit sequence whilst also still being entertaining and genuinely good on its own like like i'm not a huge fan of enterprise but i've sat down and watched the the opening sequence for the mirror verse just on its own because it's just good on its own as well as being a juxtaposition to enterprises one i am so sorry you had to waste your time


there's not really a hater she's just playing enterprise is the only one i have negative feelings about have you seen the i can't remember how much if you've seen it she still hasn't she hasn't seen the mirror universe park yet it's genuinely i think it's the best thing about the whole entire show this is the starship defiant if you don't surrender immediately we'll begin targeting your cities respond where's archer who the hell are you you're speaking with empress sato i was very disappointed because star trek discovery one of the things that has gotten on my nerves but also something i appreciate is it is a flashy show you even see it in this episode with the throwing the badge sequence on the table they love to go full hog over the top with showing us how flashy and cool the show is and they couldn't even do with that that crown that she had my goodness yeah but they couldn't yeah yeah like i would have appreciated even i was saying this to rachel before we recorded what could have been even cool is you can keep the intro with the two button presses on the editing suite but what would have been even cool is you know playing the theme song in different chords so it sounds a little creepy or even you know lowering the tone of it so it sounds sinister but it still just sounds like that it's just a normal star trek discovery theme which sounds optimistic and hopeful it was certainly a waste of an opportunity that they passed up on that to change it a little bit more than what they did totally maybe they just didn't have time a few more button clicks and just do just their door they're like we have to get this out at four o'clock what time is it 3 59. okay two buttons one two we're done but i find it surprising because although i think star trek discovery can be a little lazy but i find it more in the writing department i found it i did find it very shocking because you can tell that they really went back to the effort of going back to the mirror verse and the fact that they even did the reverse intro credit sequence showed that they had some interest in putting effort in but again not enough for me and it's a bit of a disappointment just it was very funny to me when they showed one of the phases or disruptors and it's just it's upside down yeah i was like what the hell is going on here they didn't mean to do that did they that's something's wrong it was it was a bit silly and it made me laugh but not in an i in an eyebrow yeah yeah the only other thing that bothered me about this episode was we got an opportunity to see landry again and they killed her again she must die every time i think that's three times now yeah this this episode is a complete waste of super hot women by the way not to sound sexist dirty thing but all the hot girls got killed like right away i mean they're not comparing to each other but they're wasting these beautiful women so if they ever want to visit the mirror universe again think about tilly then what about i love chili too no they didn't get all of them but i mean come on you guys


that's all of them yes emperor no lorca right they did not have any lorca they teased him a little bit but they did not bring to me this was a huge missed opportunity oh no no no keep him away no i like it yeah he's funny oh no no he's because he's bad he's about horrible exactly and that's fun i wanted to see the good lorca but keep him away no no no but he is here's where i come in and i don't know if you agree with this rachel but i think this was the only time i think this is the only time they could have explained what like could have actually shown what good lorca yeah i think they missed it i wanted to see good lorca too and i was kind of like oh barn because i reckon this could have been such a great entryway point in showing like him transported and something [ __ ] up happened to him or something you know like i found it a little bit disappointing because look i love jason isaacs he was you know like i know heather you may not be a big fan of of of his character but i literally have a christmas gift on my wall that i'm looking at right now of a dartboard with his picture on it thank you rocky you're welcome i had to physically restrain heather at the star trek convention because jason isis was there and uh she wanted to kill him for some reason i love jason isaacs because one of my favorite things about him is whatever movies and shows like star trek discovery try to play it off like he's not a villain and i'm like [ __ ] off i've seen jason isaacs in movies before he's always a villain he's totally a villain yeah like i was watching even when he's a good guy he's a bad guy when you see him with a jurassic park film he's like wait a minute he's not a yeah he's totally a bad guy but he's you know even in the real world yeah i don't know much about him as an actor but i like i like his him as an actor like i enjoy his performances he's always good at playing a shitlord um i loved i was watching the oa and like the first episode with him is trying to play it off like no he's a nice man i'm like no he's not and then the show's like no he's not i'm like of course he isn't it's jason isaacs what else is he bad man but i was disappointed rachel what about you what did you think the lack of lorca worth it in the end don't need to see that shitlord or disappointed disappointed why because i like jason isaacs and i would have really enjoyed tying up that loose end of what happened to good lorca yeah it's one of those ones where i i generally don't think they're ever gonna come back to the prime look and that the answer was well no one can survive none of our guys can survive in the mirror verse on their own so he must be dead which is such a lame answer um i would have liked to have actually seen him just to also see the boldness of jason isaacs playing a good version of that character because he played the evil version i would have actually liked to see him stretch his acting muscles and show us what the good version of that bad guy looked like maybe he couldn't have pulled that off maybe that's why i was thinking the same thing rocky no no no i like that i agree with those two i know i i but i agree too but i also would have liked to have seen them try don't you like when they try and they fail anyway i would have liked to have seen that but i remember people upset there was no locker and i think it's just because i think that's just one of those very loose threads that they technically tied up but it's one of those ones where you're just not satisfied with it people still want to see prime locker and to me this was the story where it could have happened and i don't think it's ever going to happen unless they're going to pull out the the trick of the real cleveland booker was prime look out their house and somehow he time traveled forward in times yeah what you've told us about the terran empire no starfleet officer could survive that universe alone so my gabriel is dead let's talk about the episode and the big crux of it all which is george joe's redemption arc um heather you seem like out of all of us you're the biggest fan of georgio when we guessed it on your show you seem very disappointed that her section 31 show seems like it's never going to be made anytime soon what about this character do you like so much um how much time do you got give us your cliff notes okay so i imagine that you could give us an entire thesis on why you like it so just give us the introduction portion of that thesis and i just want to preface it heather i love you so much but i think we're just going to butt heads because i hate georgios so much why well we can give each other our thesis statements of why we like her and why we hate her so tell me because i am curious i'm so curious to know because from my end i find it so bizarre that people love this character so much what do you love about her what other character do you know just brutally tells the truth like that in this show or in general in star trek any star trek um what must i do to convince you people die i'm talking about major kira what about her she's much too busy trying to save this station to be impressed with your incessant posturing derek and even if she weren't she has much better taste than to be attracted to you you a married man what do you think is gonna happen here ducat that you're gonna wear me down with your charming personality that i'm gonna be swept off my feet by that insincere smile are you really so deluded that you actually believe that we're gonna have some kind of intimate relationship here's the thing okay so this is this is how i want you to look at it um every single series of star trek that you see there is always one character that used to be an enemy but that is now a part of the star trek crew so that way we get to know that person better so it's not just black and white you see the gray involved in it um and i think giorgio is that character because what other mere universe character actually joins the crew and becomes a part of the crew and i think what they did with his her character was just amazing because they still kept her mirror universe where she was nasty but you saw the change you saw her gradually change and then when they put her back to the mirror universe in this episode you really really see the difference and i think that what they did with her character was just beyond amazing right what moments to you before these double partners are the pivotal turning points of her characters change you don't see that it's gradual that's the best part of it it's very gradual um i think anything that is pivotal uh centers around michael and her love for michael right right because see i'm on the different ends of this obviously i'm not a huge fan of of her character and i find it very hard to see the moments in which she's changed especially when i watch these double parties in which before she gets in the mirror verse she's your typical georgio she's making quips all the time she's wanting to fight people she's being typical thing and then once she's in the mirror verse it's like to me she's a different character because i i can't remember did she make any genuine typical georgio type jokey quips in this episode i don't remember any and i'm so used to her character being the the joke character like the comedy character who says the brutally honest things in a very miracle way and i think she said um when they were talking uh at the dinner table giorgio was saying you know oh those silly democratic things they're always on the brink of collapse there's an example of a quip okay i didn't see that one as a quip in terms of like an ai sausage those are the type of quips i think of her having more so than that kind of line where that felt like what she wasn't the comical relief in this episode it was totally focused on her you know what what she's her change is basically what she yeah she wasn't being funny at all yeah and that's why i felt like it was such a weird flip for me because throughout this season she's been the comedy lady who's like look i blink holograms to death isn't that cool and funny and i'm like no it's the stupidest thing i've ever seen um it raises it was unusual wasn't it i think i think i think even fans of season three have to agree that's like one of the what the [ __ ] moments was like where were we wait what no can you imagine if somebody just blinked out the doctor at voyager oh my god that would [ __ ] you would die you would literally die but hey technology hasn't changed in over 900 years whatever rocky what about you what are you what are you what do you think about georgio as a as a character what do you do you love her do you hate her what's your general feelings on her i loved her um the second the show started uh the the pure fur the pure um starfleet captain giorgio was awesome and we lost her right away and that really surprised me because i thought this is going to be great she's a good captain and it's just really really easy to play the good captain what is unusual and different is to play the mirror version of it in the regular universe and i think she did that to a t and uh she got the comic relief lines because she could say things no one else would say she could be brutally honest even if it was completely wrong and uh and when she needed somebody to be a badass she could do it without blinking she was so good but she will blink someone to death just yeah but beside the blinking of that thing that was a little silly i loved the little western sequence when they went and visited the planet in in the saloon basically and she agreed she got the throw down in that that [ __ ] was badass yeah i i look i'm not a huge fan of georgio but to me i see i'm not a huge fan of her and michael together however i'm a huge a bigger fan of her and saroo together and it feels like that bond those two together actually culminates quite well in this episode in which you see her relationship with the slave version of him because you remember how she was to these slave versions in the original series seasons they were delicious and and that is the relationship where i can see what now they're high in cholesterol yeah yeah and that's ringing yeah um which is a nice call back to to uh season one where cerrus is like i'm far too unpalatable and stringy um but that i can see where where heather's coming from more with in terms of her gradual change i see it so strongly with suru and i think it's because saru is a character is also one of those characters in which um he's a dynamic character speaking about this last episode with your other hosts where he's a character where you can point to so easily the moments where he has changed and why he has changed and i think seeing him and uh giorgio play off each other is actually an interesting pairing because they are so different to one another but they have a weird mutual respect for one another because they're both leaders or they're both trying to be leaders or having issues with leadership she obviously with her crumbling empire and him obviously figuring out how to be a captain um especially when you consider also his former captain that he loved so much was the original version of jojo somebody he admired and somebody who saved him from his oppression and it's interesting to have the juxtaposition of the woman who saved him from his oppression is now replaced with a woman who is the cause of oppression in another universe that's interesting so i find that aspect of giorgio fascinating more so than the quips more so than the mother-daughter complex of her and michael i find that more interesting so my favorite parts in this second part the fireflies the fireflies yes the fireflies but my favorite sections of these double parties was the saroo section where her and saroo just have these conversations together the the mirror version of him and it felt like it that was really earned to me because i i can i can see how those two characters have bonded and thus she treats the the slave version of him much better than she would have in the past placing a great deal of trust in me my corpse would already be eaten to bones if i could not accurately judge between loyalty and flattery your regret was genuine when you thought you were leaving me here as was your pain when your comrade fell you're not a fan either you're me and you are united only not fans of her yeah spacey space hitler we've caught her what about her do you like i i hadn't considered heather's point of how all of the series bring in somebody who was an enemy and becomes part of the crew because we have taken note of how they try and do that in voyager and it doesn't really work yeah they don't follow through on it they don't follow seven or nine yeah oh but yeah chicote and and bolano


seven works much better but uh marquee stuff in the first couple of seasons not so because the borg was the uh the ultimate enemy and then they brought seven and nine in to you know humanize the borg well yeah sex it up too be humanize the borg yeah yeah um i think what is the original series the only one that doesn't kind of follow this rule because they're all just on the same page right that was falcons vulcan oh vulcans i guess they're still friends they just said they're aliens no no that's the point of enterprise to see how like crappy the vulcans were but that wasn't the point of the original series i guess no but there is that suspicion remember there's that episode of t-o-s where one of the bridge crew is like i don't trust him oh yeah when they're fighting the romulans for the first time there's a racist crew member against spock yeah mr spark he pulled me out of the phaser room saved my life he risked his life and after i i saved a trained navigator so that he could return to duty i'm capable of no other feelings in such matters why is giorgio space hiffler okay okay i'm gonna put my seat belt on now hold on a second who are you okay okay okay no no this is actually really good because heather this is something i'm really keen to talk to someone who's a fan of giorgio because to me this is so obvious but to hear you actually say how is she space hitler raises so many interesting questions for me i've discussed this in the first part so for the listeners this may be a bit of a repetition but i'll discuss it anyway she's in her universe she has killed whole species out of racial prejudice she's eaten others because she thinks they're genetically inferior to her she do i need to go on that's very hit yeah yeah do you could do more go for it yeah so she uh well the whole mirror versus is uh nazi allegory obviously here's here's the thing so i have a couple points on that um my first and don't don't wait until i get to the second point so my first point is um how should how could she be a hitler in a world full of hitler's it's the mirror universe everyone there says because she's the emperor and the orchestrator of genesis second point so second point in this episode the guardian of forever said that the whole point of the last this episode and last episode was to weigh her yes because she doesn't belong in the mirror universe anymore she doesn't belong with the hitlers anymore she doesn't belong in this world but she doesn't belong with the hitlers because she's not a hitler she's not one of them and the guardian of forever said that yes maybe we should just call her space mussolini okay he is here's where i come from with this in a narrative like star trek discovery like star trek in general her level of supreme evil that they started her at is where she got off on the wrong foot for me and what i mean by that is we've had characters like her in the show in seasons of yesteryear she's a garrick type character right where garrick is a bad guy who's done bad things but he's a quippy guy who says snarky things but the thing about garrick in comparison to jojo is his level of evil isn't the point in which he's exterminated whole species he's just tortured people for information however however he he did that in this universe it wasn't like the mirror universe it was and he has giorgio giorgio was born and raised and brought up in a different universe and so it's not an imaginary cardassian culture where they approve of his actions he was born and raised in not the mere universe so compared to the mirror universe that's actually pretty good that's like a good you know technically a good person now she was brought up in the mirror universe which and i'm quoting her in this episode she said i wish there was another language you can understand but here strength is power here terror is love there is just no other way that i can reach you so it's not a matter of character it's not her being hitler it's her character in the universe the mirror universe that she was brought up in and raised in and had to you know work her way through so i don't necessarily agree with you on that point because it's two different universes but the thing is the whole point that these two episodes are bringing up and the show is brought up is the terranet and ds9 brings us up to the terran empire collapses because that methodology that ideology that belief system is fundamentally flawed and it doesn't work and again it's a world full of hitler's in the guardian of forever said just the humans full of hitlers she doesn't belong there and even the guardian of forever said that she's not hitler oh yeah but he is he's okay heather here's where my issue lays to just go back a bit i got off on the wrong foot with jojo from the very beginning because they set her up as the big evil emperor of the entire mirror universe the miravo universe for the humans is directly set up to be an equivalent of nazi germany with the salutes with the uniforms with the ideologies that they bestow so when you set her up to be an enemy so that way when she comes aboard and becomes a crewman you get that gray it's not right they want you to think it's black and white which is why they set it up that way at the very beginning but then you see that it's not black and white you see that it's gray and that's the point of her coming on and being we've seen seeing her as like the character that she is in this universe but so this is how georgia acts in this universe compared to giorgio act how she acted in the mirror universe but my issue is can you give a gray and redemption arc to the leader and orchestrator of several genocides deep space nine said you can't to someone like that to anyone deep space nine was fantastic because it didn't show the black and white because it showed the gray and it's so they still morally condemned fascism gold to cut was still a fascist although they humanized him although they gave him facets and layers they said constantly remember he orchestrated death camps he was a rapist he was a criminal he although he was a dad who had feelings and love but he was a bad guy is to show that even bad people have gray in them even bad people have some good in them it's not black and white it's gray and that's the point of showing uh enemy coming aboard and being a part of the crew and let's seeing their character you know put in a different situation and how they react it's gray it's not black and white but that is why i have an issue my issue comes from again the level of evil with garrick he wasn't gold to cut if golda cut was a fellow crew member on the show and they just constantly kept bringing up all the genocides he did i still would find it gross and disgusting because one of the recurring staples in star trek as a as a brand is fascism is unacceptable fascism is bad fascism is something we should not condone or fascism is bad people are not bad people people can fall into fascism people can be redeemed and they're still good in people


i just can't help but think this is a woman who has killed more people than any other star trek villain we've ever encountered and i find it weird same with lorca and you like lorca lorca was a bad guy and they punished him and the show said that was bad so if somebody enjoyed and all of that stuff but yet you like a character who does that because the show doesn't just because the show doesn't condone him the show punishes him the show says that was wrong you vilifies him is what i'm saying but you don't like giorgio and yet both of them killed because killing is not a good killing i like it because however the show frames it the show frames locker as a bad person so i can enjoy him like a khan type way it's like i recognize that the villain the show the movies whatever recognizes the villainy recognizes that the fascism is bad i thought for a second if any of you were capable of relinquishing this cult-like devotion to the federation i'd enlist your skills today we are not interested in your sentiments we introduced georgio as someone who has exterminated whole species because of racial prejudice yes she grew up in university


without the enemy doing bad stuff of course but is that too much bad stuff is that too over the top what i'm saying is she's in the mirror universe yes and this is also applying to real world context this is difficult none of this is real world no no because it's evoking nazi imagery how can you not think of real world context how can you not think of real world genocides how can you not think of real world fascism lawca they made real world parallels to him being a trump type it does relate because that's star trek right they're using sci-fi allegories they're using these sci-fi characters to relate to the modern world and to make you think i think when i watch star trek fascism is bad as someone with a polish heritage i also think fascism is bad when i watch a show where they introduce one of their main characters is the universe's equivalent of hitler in terms of they are the supreme leader and the architect of genocides and then they say don't you want to see this character redeemed i can't help but think of the real world context of several dictators who she evokes and thinking can they be redeemed can hitler be redeemed would you would you buy that i know further had hitler had dogs and had paintings hitler was horrible but again there's the black and white and not every person is black and white there's always some gray and i think that's what they're trying to show yeah and and that's where we just differ i think for me her being the head architect of oppression tyranny and genocide is too big of a pill for me to swallow of redemption because yes there's grays in people but my issue too is throughout the show i wish that they had condemned her actions more often but more often than not they said the show says her violence is appropriate it works her terror worked more often than it didn't season one she plants a bomb in the center of kronos it wins the war although she didn't explode it the threat of it happening won the war second season she just brutally murders people and that wins the second season and that's where it's like okay if you're going to say that stuff is bad i wish more often than not that they had someone like saru which they did every now and then i wish more often than not they would say hey that is wrong try it this way but more often than not the show would say the action set pieces from her were good in discovery season 3 episode 2 isn't that exactly what happened in the bar scene because giorgio was going to kill that guy but saroo stopped her and said no this is not who we are we are not bad people and they changed her opinion and they had him banned or whatever so actually that's it she's proven to be right at the end of it yeah because she's proven to be right at the end of it because his diplomacy was going to fail and they would only react he was going to do something bad and saroo stopped her and told her this is not who we are that's the example that i'm trying to use oh yes but then here's a weird thing too what happens to that character that she gave mercy to he just gets brutally murdered by book so in the end what difference did it make to spare him you asked me for an example oh yeah yeah jumped in and told her this is not good and i'm giving you an example and that was my favorite episode of the season because i wish that was more throughout the show i'm not saying that there isn't i'm saying we needed i need i needed more of that throughout the show that's what made garrick a far more interesting character because you had bashir right in his face questioning him and and and challenging his viewpoints i wish that we had more of that instead you have a eulogy scene in which they say her boots were pretty badass and i'm like okay radio interesting viewpoint to have on a character that's been nothing but mean to you throughout the whole show but that's interesting i wish i could have done more you tried and she knew that even if she bit your head off every chance she got if i had time i poisoned your children uh she was tough she was a force to be reckoned with and um she pretty much redefined the word badass if it isn't serus walking come on blunder find a way to kill everyone on board yet oh and can i just add that she had the best walk with that coat and those boots um you have some uh leland on your shoes somebody had to make sure he was dead one of the things that's been interesting is we were watching season three come out while we were doing our show so we were reviewing and rewatching season one and season two so it was a little bit interesting to to be currently watching discovery and it's revisiting its own self while we were revisiting that point too how did you feel about it did it all did it all work for you for the most part yeah like it but that the success of that is based off a decision that i made in my own head rather than the success of the show which we brought up last episode i believe which is that i don't think that it's direct time travel i think it's a dimension jump which means that i'm not concerned with the inconsistencies in continuity yeah yeah i look at it as now we talked to your previous hosts about this and i look at it like an avengers endgame kind of time travel thing in which her physically coming back in time has already altered the time and split it off into something different because there's just some weird continuity things before she even arrives that don't make sense with if you watch season one which you know time travel stuff is always difficult it always infuriates my brain because time travel stuff is very hard to do so that was something where that's how i look at the time travel of this rocky how did you feel about going back to the mirror universe and how do you view this uh experience because the guardian of forever's abilities have been very all over the board like in the animated series it's very different to the original series and then there's books and stuff they say it's different how did you feel coming back to this universe and how do you think it all works do you think this is direct time travel do you think this is avengers end game kind of thing where each decision she makes splinters off a new little thing what do you think yeah that was that was something i i completely didn't think about when i saw this originally i was like oh well the other this doesn't really change the way the universe happened after the fact because this is just a a thing that happened in the you know the guardian's mirror unit this wasn't real but at the same time i'm like oh wait a minute the stuff that happened with the guardian of forever back in the original series did actually change history and then in fact that you've even pointed out is like i'm kind of hanging out low because i don't want people to be using me to change history because of the temporal wars and all that so yeah the the it did feel like there was some incontinuity in there um yeah uh as far as uh giorgio and going through her mirror side of things uh again uh i felt it was a little strange because she was a changed woman uh the because she she did not react the same way she did react still thinking she could rule the universe and do it her way the way she wants it to work completely oblivious of all the other things that are happening and uh no not realizing what she was doing was completely out of character with what was going on you know mirror universe style versus the one she's been getting used to in discoveries universe yeah when i first watched it i took it for granted i kind of threw my hands up in the end said oh well they say she's learned something but she doesn't [ __ ] learn anything because she still tried to just do it brute force violent style and then they say way too quick because uh she was you know putting uh burnham through the agonizer and uh i mean yeah they had some time-lapse sequences going on and three times through the food tray at her even if it was three months they'd throw the food tray at her and she's you finally she eats the bread um she's eating the bread not because she's gonna bow down to giorgio it's because she was ready to get out of the [ __ ] agonizer uh so she comes in and she said she she even stuttered and didn't even look her in the eye when she said uh yeah i'm bowing down to you now she i did not trust that i'm like okay yeah that's cool said trust me now you can throw her back in for another three months just to make sure because nothing says i'm trustworthy like saying you can trust me exactly and not even look you in the eye when they say it i'm like okay throw her back in for another another few times because i don't quite get yeah it's not that's the mirror universe giorgio the one that we started with that's what she would have done she would be like yeah i don't think so you need to cook a little bit longer where was her fidget spinner device from season one when she killed people with a magical fidget spinner remember that oh goodness that was right oh wow remember that remember 2017. remember that um but what i was going to say is i took for granted the first time robin the second watching i really did appreciate it's not about her redemption via her saving or redeeming the evil michael but it's about the small things that she didn't have to do thus the whole relationship with saroo she didn't have to be nice to saru she didn't have to save the rest of his people she didn't have to stop eating them but those are things that are the gradual change and things she's adapted to and that's what's being weighed more so than if she let michael live or not because at the end of the day one of the things i mean one of the lines that did confuse me is like it's like well i killed michael and he's like ah nothing you could do it was self-defense i'm like well the first time she killed michael self-defense too but i guess you know whatever but like that is what i took for granted the first one because you know i'm not a huge george earth fan i just throw my hands up in the end goes ah she didn't learn anything they said she did but noticing it and actually giving it the fair shake and obviously we're talking about in a review format and analytical format i have to look at this as fairly as possible that was something that i did appreciate and again it ties back to i just like her and saroo together and it feels earned and and paid off there um what about you heather obviously going back to the mirror universe were you a big fan of it in season one and how does it hold up to go all the way back to in season three i love season three i think the seasons got better as they moved along season one was not my favorite and honestly season one was not my favorite because of lorca i hate lorca lorca pisses me off i'm so glad they got rid of them so that's how i feel about season one versus season three yeah season one offends me more in terms of my own moral stuff i've talked about this on the pod uh lots of times there's just some choices that they made that obviously the barrier gays thing is i still can't believe they did that i still can't believe that they did that in 2017 on the star trek show and uh all that but one of the things that is interesting is to go back to the mirror universe there was some things that i took for granted in season one like i was really looking at their costumes this time around and i really liked michael's costume in this episode i can't remember if it was the exact same replicated from season one but i really liked that it was a very s to me a subtle inverse of the discovery outfit like with the with the things on the ribs and all of that i'm saying that too i took it for granted the first time around and on the first viewing of this episode so i was noticing those little touches there was no tails that they paid attention to which made it even more annoying that they didn't pay attention to the details in the theme song montage yeah you know but hey the costume people they're really good with the details of these things sometimes a little bit too much sometimes a little bit too over designed where you go that torch bearer outfit from season one got worked on for like nearly a year and you saw it for two seconds on screen poor guy um well they look really good in person though yeah yeah if you see it in the conventions going on tour that looked really cool in person too bad the show only shot it for two seconds poor guy he put so much effort in it but like rocky one of the things i wanted uh wanted to ask you guys about being bigger fans of giorgio and bigger fans of of of the mirror universe and this type of stuff is when it all comes down to the the final moments of uh like her relationship with the with the evil version of michael and how she does have to kill her and she gets weighed at the end how did you feel about georgio having to leave this show i felt they missed out on something uh i i felt that uh a saroo and giorgio at mirror universe would have been something interesting to see um that could have been very i mean i know they had to take her and put her back in for section 31. um that's going to be very interesting to see how that turns out because that should be freaking amazing but um yeah the it was really it's a misfit this giorgio doesn't fit in the mirror universe anymore she doesn't fit she she's doing these things with the kelpie and she's making these decisions she's not being ruthless as a emperor of the the empire long live the empire should be um so she wasn't fitting i mean and it and she she spared the burnham i was like are you insane and now you're gonna try to rehabilitate her and then you take her at her word that she trusts you now that was nuts there's no there's no rhyme or reason to that whatever universe you come into that didn't make any sense to me um so yeah i think it was just it was more about being weighed by the guardian i mean do you fit in that you know because you don't quite fit in this universe just right do you fit in that universe and uh and she really was falling out of that fit she really um she she thought maybe she could turn it around and be successful and uh and and rule the galaxy with with burnham forever and that was not happening she could not she could not retrain burnham i killed my daughter again but in fairness your hands were tied the end was the same but you tried i failed her the empire yeah you're you're a big fan of uh this cat of jojo and her redemption if they do get around to this section 31 show and they team her up with ash tyler like is that the best thing do you think for her character to go back to what she was doing in season two ash tyler just totally brings it down if giorgio was alone it would be a completely different answer but after you told me about ash tyler i just can't look at it he's the head of section 31 so he would be her boss i honestly i'm worried about the section 31 show just a little bit not because of ash tyler or because of giorgio i'm worried about section 31 because every time they make an appearance in the shows they're messing stuff up all the time they're just doing it without with reckless abandon everywhere so i'm a little bit concerned about what they're going to do in the universe but uh i'm interested to see what happens though i'm just worried like although i'm not a again not a fan of jojo where they've ended her here i worry that throwing her back into that espionage section 31 world is just gonna muck up what kind of redemption arc you got for here we're just gonna throw i worry that they're just gonna throw her back to where she was in season two and the idea that ash hylo is the head of section 31 and it'll be an in a flip of what they were in season two where he was her underling and it's just like i don't know like i don't know if i would want to see her character again honestly but like if i did i don't know if throwing her into the the morally gray dark gritty throwy angry world of section 31 would benefit her character considering that she's been shedding away from that just to throw her back in that world again i wonder if it's just going to be you know life a roller coaster though i mean it's never straight up it's never straight down you always have ups and downs so isn't that part of you know the growth dynamic yeah but sometimes you know in your narrative you want to see your characters go you know sometimes you want to see them succeed in a certain way but then that's the point of narratives they like to subvert expectations you're worried that they're putting her character in reverse yeah i don't want her to take a step back you're okay with the roller coaster doing a loop-de-loop and it's starting to go backwards but you don't want it to go backwards and that's kind of you're not sure on which track they are on that's fun too though when they throw it backwards through the loop that's especially when you're not expecting it that's like ah loopy lips are fun i don't wanna i don't want a character regression you know even with characters i don't like i don't want them to regress and that's what annoyed me about ash tyler in season two end of season one it seemed like he was gonna go places better than what he did and then he just regressed again and it was like well i don't wanna spend time with you and so i worry about jojo's characterization we all agree that ash tyler sucks and we don't want to see him again yes definitely yes i feel bad because he's a i feel bad he's a good actor but again you're separating the actors from the characters i know you can have a great actor but have a super annoying character it makes it more upsetting right though when you know that the person can act and the script is giving them a character that you can't act through it's just makes it hard you know like i know this guy can act but they're just giving him a character that can only play one note from an acting perspective which is mopey i tried to shut her out when russ spoke the call i resisted by thinking of you the one i want to be human for and i love uh guardian of forever rachel did you guess that was gonna be it on the first watch yeah i don't think so i knew that it was gonna be some kind of reference but i don't think i bothered to give it enough thought to actually consider what it was gonna be yeah i was like they're pointing this out too much for it not to be a reference yeah and i'm used to them referencing i knew uh because of the newspaper many people picked up on the newspaper i'm like hey i know that that's a reference to a thing i know in a show that i've watched before i'm you know weirdly i was fine with it being the guardian of forever i'm not a huge lover of hey reference and that pushes things over mine references don't win me over as easily as other people like it has to be really you know and i thought it was fine i was actually a bit more um i don't know i don't know how i feel about the garden of forever having like a a human persona avatar figure because i really liked him just being a and you know a sci-fi big rock yeah just a big rock portal yeah it's kind of weird having it as a guy walking around but it also with a cigar it makes sense for what they're saying about him having to go into hiding because of the temporal wars yeah but sorry and i like the performance of carl i've always liked that guy i've always liked i've liked him since csi um so he was great i thought he was wonderful the gardener forever people got enraged about it people loved it people i i was indifferent i was like okay cool like it's just a thing that you know it's here it's not ruining the continuity of him because he's been you know not um coherent throughout the whole entire run of star trek he's changed and grown over time um obviously you guys said at the beginning you guys were thrilled and hyped about it being the guardian of forever what about that


about it what we thought or yeah what about it made you so like you know you know feels so great that oh yeah it's a guy in there forever because what does that matter to this guy and the guardian of forever ever ever ever ever yeah the dramatic reading of that line that was that was pretty weird to have it morph into the original line that was kind of strange but it was still cool i mean i i i as a star trek geek growing up with star trek recognizing the guardian of forever um was an amazing moment in this episode um the only thing i have regrets about is uh we speculated about this because it was a two-parter and uh patrick i think it was patrick that mentioned uh that they saw the newspaper thing and he kind of thought it was going to be the guardian forever and everyone else was like we were all saying it's a cue right he's a cue and he may still be a cue but well technically we weren't wrong remember because they wanted anyone no no it's not want the guardians of forever are a de-evolved version of the queue continuum so it is the queue it's just a d evolved version of the queue the guardians are there forever eventually evolve into being the queue which is interesting i remember that's where it is i did memory alpha on that one oh okay i remember the writers talking about how they wanted it to be a cue originally but then they thought let's leave the queue for picard because it makes more sense in that universe which i agree i think if you're going to introduce the queue you do it in picard you know it's it makes sense there while this it makes sense because discovery has always been hearkening back to the original series why ask why it makes you over like you know feel great and overjoyed is does it work on its own or is it something where it's like you have to just know star trek because that's the thing about discovery i question a lot is is this a show for people who don't know star trek and this is their story when they when they overlaid the guardian of forever that was the old guardian of forever they actually took the audio clip from the very very first guardian of forever and like overlaid that on his voice so you get the reminiscence you get the callback that is what causes the goosebumps and the chills and that kind of thing because you remember that and they brought it back and then you get the chill so you get that emotional reaction yeah but is it a good here's the thing with references though is it a good reference because only us old school trek fans get it or does it work on its own like if you if you don't know who the gardener forever is what does this matter why are you watching discover it it's dude


you gotta stay up no if you're one of our friends and you've seen the show for the first time you're like that was cool but what the hell's the guardian forever and like oh hold on we got to watch this original episode because this is very important i got a list of episodes for you to watch yeah that's a great that's a great question that you brought is a it's a very good question because um a science fiction wise when you started watching discovery and a lot of trekies came out and said okay what the [ __ ] is with the klingons what's with all the violence what is going on is this star trek this isn't start it's not my star trek this doesn't make sense timeline wise but at the same time i'm looking at it going okay but it's really good sci-fi is it amazing the same star trek i grew up with no not yet but is it really good sci-fi yeah it's [ __ ] good sci-fi it looks great it's fun to watch sound effects are cool the characters are kind of cool i'm enjoying this so i'm gonna keep watching and they get these little tie backs and they're trying to make sure that yes it is star trek we have the guardian forever it's star trek um the mirror universe this is pure star trek star trek invented the beer universe right make it star trek yeah the references or should there be more thematic links no the theme the themes of star trek um is what makes star trek star trek when they had that episode where they're doing like the the courtroom thing about the vulcans yeah unification three yeah that one was star trek that's pure star trek yeah when you watch an episode um we watched an episode of enterprise where it had flocks writing to his pen pal uh human doctor on his doing an internship or whatever that was pure star trek the way they did it it's not about the phasers all the time it's not about speed it's not it's about the people and what they're doing so heather brought up a point earlier of why are you watching discovery if you're not into star trek and whatever like that's my thing is star trek is star trek discovery a show for people who only know star trek or for people who don't because when the moments do like like this do come up or unification three for instance my high school friend never watched a star trek in his life he watched discovery and thought it was really great those first two seasons filled him in on the references because they would fill you in a bit more he was completely lost with seasons three because he said to me what's unification who are the romulans why should i care who's the guardian of forever that's where i question discovery is this a show for everyone or only certain people it's the same with uh the other star trek series too lower decks it's not something for people who have never watched star trek before i mean for example lower decks you have to have watched star trek before pick hard you have had to have watched yesterday much more clear but i feel like discovery is more inconsistent with where it's aiming yeah well it feels like sometimes or for instance if this is for star trek fans say it's not for newbies there's just some things that we we've heard we've all heard we've even had some of our own in this discussion there's certain continuity things and certain tonal things that feel inconsistent with the star treks that we've had in the past this doesn't line up this doesn't feel like this this doesn't work like this did it we could go on and on and on and if it is for star trek fans purely then wouldn't it be more um catered towards that audience like something like lower dex does where lower decks goes back to the a and b storylines and so on and so forth while discovery it to me it felt like this is supposed to be like a gateway like tng was in the 90s where it's like yeah you can see the original series but tng works on its own you can just enjoy this on its own you know like not every episode is referring back to the original series or the movies and that is why i i'm like questioning because we've had other guests on who say the exact opposite they say oh i think this is a show that's supposed to be for new people to enjoy and if you don't get the references it's fine because they go quickly by but with the guardian of forever and they do the old voice imagine watching this and you don't know what that is they'd be like what happened that was weird why did they they went a bit overboard with that effect i can't not talk about it anymore the guardian of forever the guardian of forever the freaking guardian of forever on star trek discovery i literally jumped up off my couch when that was revealed how unbelievably cool was that let's talk about hugh colbert rachel doctor hugh colbert was in this episode we got to see the mirror universe version of we got to see him [ __ ] [ __ ] up royally and get [ __ ] up by suru we got to see him get thrown into this we've got to see him evilly smirk instead of smile and nod do you think with him being introduced as in this season that it just makes the absence of him from the first season even more weird yes like it's a weird choice when you look back at it right where they thought let's not have him there and yet this season's like nah [ __ ] that decision that was stupid don't you want to see wilson cruz with mascara on yes yes i do you just said mascara really weird screw you um i heard who showed what he said what did you think of wilson cruz's characterization of an evil doctor hugh colburn rachel i thought it was good i thought it was fine it was the general menacing evilness smirkiness that you expect from a mirror universe person in star trek yeah i i know heather will cringe at me saying this i said it last episode i can definitely feel that wilson cruz picked up some um energy from when jason when he was working with jason isaacs because he really did feel like he was honing in on the kind of evil campiness that jason isaacs was doing in the first season more so than the campiness of someone like you know in the 90s with the mirror universe and ds9 or the 60s i feel like he played it a little less overtly campy than every other person in this episode and it was nice to see that that because wilson cruz and jason isaacs had great chemistry when they did work in season one so i it's nice to see like it feels like he's picked up that kind of energy that jason was putting down and it kind of makes the universe feel more consistent with itself like it doesn't just feel like only jason isaacs was the that type of goofy evil in the mirror universe it feels like well there are other characters and other actors who are picking up that baton as well it gives it a richer feel um rocky culver are you a big fan of him and how do you how did you like an evil mad scientist version of this guy okay i'm a big fan of culver i he's grown on me so much over the series um it was weird that they killed him for a while and then it was weird that he brought him back and he wasn't feeling it quite right and it's nice to see him he's starting to feel it as a you know he seems to be part of the crew and and really into it now especially when they come into the next couple episodes he really comes into it but um so i love wilson cruz my god that man is got charisma like crazy and uh and dude's more fit than i can even imagine uh me ever being for sure but he's he's not a bad looking dude and i'm a straight man he's charismatic as hell like it makes you angry that the first two seasons didn't play up to that stream absolutely i agree 112 right there because after seeing him in person at the conventions from seat what is it double a or whatever section we were sitting in way back in the middle of the room you could feel his charisma all the way on the stage and he's not more than an inch tall from where you're sitting but he he just floats charisma all over the place he's a nice guy he can just kind of screen when he's on it and it makes it so weird that in the first two seasons he was just a background guy well you go wait wait wait what season three really elevated him and it was nice to see him do it the exact same way in the mirror of a universe i think like he really stood out as the evil counterpart not just i mean the uniform hell that's right yeah okay yeah now mirror universe doctors are not something you want to be dealing with in the universe whatsoever they're worse than dentists are okay and dentists are no good in the mirror universe either okay um the thing about a doctor in the mirror universe is they're there to patch you up they're there to keep you going they're there you keep you going because you just got killed a couple times in the agonizing they're there to boost you back in and jump start you they're there to force feed you so that way you don't die they're gonna force feed you so you don't die they are there to prolong your pain they're not there to help you with your pain they can kill you in a zillion ways and they can tell you how to do it quickly chances are they're not going to do it quickly okay you don't want to deal with the doctor in the mirror universe um so yeah he was pure wonderful evil in in the in the mirror universe totally i agree with that all the way wilson cruz's performance alone his performance alone gives you the understanding of why georgia was afraid and not willing to seek medical help throughout the season his performance said it and again it highlights how frustrating it was that they just put wilson cruz on the back burner for nearly three whole seasons and it's like it makes it so rewarding in a way where it's like oh okay see they don't need to give us an expo dump about his doctor character i don't need to know much about him i just see wilson cruz on the screen being menacing and i completely buy the storyline earlier in the season of her being kind of weary of seeking medical treatment because when i was initially watching it i'm going okay they're just doing this to prolong the drama because we've got to reach 14 13 episodes but when you actually see wilson cruz lurking around in the mirror verse you go okay i get it i get it now there are actors in star trek discovery that are so phenomenal and they're not sometimes they're barely used but they're very good actors oh yeah heather what are your thoughts on uh hugh colbert as a character and what do you think of his mirror counterpart uh i love the character i think he's a great character same i wish they would have more of him um looking forward to getting to know him better in the future uh seasons and his mirror universe character was evil yeah he i wish that we got to see what him and uh stamets were a bit like more so before stamets got stabbed we didn't get to see them hang out as much as i would have liked more whips and jeans right yeah that's what i was thinking bondage they actually have sex that would be that would be the big twist because it's a what do you call it s m yeah yeah um so rachel what would you rate this would you give this a yum being bad or yum yum being good a yum yum not a fan nah this is bad yeah i don't know but i am in a similar boat to you where i don't think the redemption doesn't work for me and even though i do understand that she's been changed and shifted through her experiences on discovery i would have liked to see those breadcrumbs rather than like know that there's this gradual thing but to see specific events or small interactions that show that she's not the same person that she was when she arrived yeah and like i pointed out at the start i didn't feel the stakes of this episode because i knew cbs's plans for the camera out of the show yeah yeah that does tarnish some things when you do watch these shows and you know a little bit too much about the production side of things where it's like well obviously they got to get rid of georgio because she has this show like it does take a little bit of the mystique out of viewing a show like you know when i'm watching some shows i don't know any of that so i'm just enjoying the ride but that is the unfortunate nature of being on the social media and following these things and talking about it in a star trek discovery re-watch capacity it's the same thing that people experienced with the marvel view marvel films of being like well this actor's contract is up so they're going to have to leave in this movie yeah it takes a little bit of the judge out of it you know what rachel i'm going to be i'm going to be you know i started out very negative although heather and rocky didn't convince me that george joe's this wonderful character i'm actually gonna give this episode a yum yum yum yum this is the benefits of actually discussing an episode not just watching and then going that's it actually sitting down discussing it breaking down what the story was trying to say the structure of it this beat this beat and having people like starfleet underground on who like the show far more than we do and give us something to bounce off of and actually get a different point of view i walked in thinking oh i'm just going to hate this and i've got to say yam and i'm going to be arguing with our starfleet underground friends about the episode because i really didn't like it but actually sitting down talking about it like actually talking about it and reflecting upon things i'm i'm i'm happily but also in a very surprised manner going to give this a yum yum i don't believe in the redemption arc which is the big thrust of it but i did i did enjoy myself watching it a bit and i enjoyed actually talking about it and seeing what they were trying to do with it i'm glad for you baby i'm glad for me too rocky where do you fall yum or yum yum oh i'm a yum yum yum yum but i'm a yum yum most of the time for star trek um so you got that about me but uh it's really interesting uh you're right discussing these episodes like this and i hear the different viewpoints and i can i can see where people you know of course if you go on the internet read comments one you'd never read the comments and two if you're looking on the internet don't look at those things because yeah if you you should be looking at porn because that's much more entertaining um i don't know where that joke was going escorting goodness yeah sorry okay so um but the ideas of looking at star trek critically and not just being a fanboy yeah but looking at it critically i can see where some of the things are coming from and i agree with some of them i really do think maybe i mean there was a lot of bloodshed in this mirror universe they must go through crew members like crazy with this much kind of bloodshed in this mirror universe in fact it's surprising that some of them are still alive by the time they get here um just the amount of bloodshed they had and i think you know it would have been you could sit there and go it would have been a little bit more interesting if they did this or if they did that and as a fan you can go write some fan fiction up and it'll be a lot more interesting and oh gosh now you're looking at the porn again shame on you stop looking at the internet um because it goes uh you know one click from fan uh fan fiction to you know if you read enough of it there's a lot of that in there yeah i don't read a lot of it but i've read some anyway i've done research um but yeah i know i'm yum yum all this uh i i really enjoyed it and i continue to enjoy discovery and uh while i am sad that we we we there's no way to get landry back in the show um i just i i don't know what i'm gonna do about that there are just things you can't get around and i have a complete disagreement with the producers of uh of star trek because of this however still watch the show and still pretty much fanboy so yum yum yum yum yum yum uh heather yum oh yum yum um i give this episode two yum's up so i think it's an awesome episode i loved it it's one of my favorites i love how they made this a prequel slash pilot for section 31 and i'm really looking forward to that spin-off when they finally get to it and the fact that they brought the guardian of forever and i just i freaking love this episode i will ask the the harsh question if say for some reason the section 31 show never comes to be how will this episode feel for me blast me i will not hear any of that blasphemy there's a lot of money they'd be missing out on if they did that i'm just saying exactly pocket books


guys your american is showing i'm sorry let me zip this back up zip it back up but what do you think what do you think say for some reason it never comes to fruition like that fourth star trek movie still hasn't um what how will this episode stand like will it just work will it still work or will still will it feel like a weird oddity of like a backdoor pilot because it it ends her story in discovery so she could start a new story so they ended i agree it's not like there was a cliffhanger or anything it's not like it was like whatever happened to th it's like you got a definitive ending with the story uh with the character arc and everything so but there are enough threads that they can pull out to yeah it's not like terra elysium where the third season said oh [ __ ] teralysium we're not gonna deal with that and that feels way more like weird when you watch new eden again and you're like wait i thought this was going to be way and more important than it actually is oh well i guess it doesn't matter did you ever make it to tara elysium no landed right back on east southbourne wasn't pretty heather could you please inform us what will be covered what rachel and i will be watching next episode on star trek discovery sure so next episode is sue call discovery ventures to the rubilyn nebula where burnham saru and kober make a shocking realization about the origins of the burn as the rest of the crew faces an unexpected threat i like we focus so heavily on georgio i didn't even mention that shrew got his like grilled from the admiral and there was like actual other characters in this episode because oh that whole fourth act yeah yeah it was fun we briefly mentioned but you know we didn't mention book being like well if i'm not stuff late i can act i can act more like the emerald chain which is something it was awesome he did he did the thing that season season three did a lot of which is he solved a crisis off screen and then told us that he did it and i'm like good job like hey i have this thing it solves all of our problems it's not just that it's the way he said it because he's like okay i read the field mem manual and then it got really really interesting so then i went to the technical manual and then i had to see how it ended so then i had to go to the advanced technical manual and then i had to read the wikipedia page and then i had to read the dictionary because some of that stuff i did not understand and then i looked at the fan fiction and oh my god i love the book's outfit because it's one of those ones wait remember in season two when um dr culver was just in a normal suit jacket and shirt talking to the admiral and it feels like oh they just wore the normal they're not wearing sci-fi outfits i love books when we're just like a normal little jumper with the buttons near the neck for no reason it's just like it gently evokes the clothes that they wore when they went to his home planet yeah yeah but not i like when star trek discovery does fashion without it being too like it's a sci-fi world where we got tin foil on our titties like in the original series again the costume department on discovery does a really good job yeah oh they rock they yeah they rock and they're winning awards for it too so you can't you cannot fault this is the costume department on discovery no no qualms with them from me so starfleet underground where can people find you on the internets well starfleetunderground.com is a pretty good place to look um because we're on the website and that's where we're everywhere and you know just starfleetunderground.com it's easy to remember um starfleet under g is on twitter because twitter only allowed so many characters in the name so starfleet under g on twitter and i believe starfleet under g on instagram or was it underground on that one um but just look for starfleetunderground.com and go from there all the links are in there someplace and it's so much fun to find them and of course we could plug our patreon but this is your show oh well nathan did it last week so he did it so you might as well tell us about the photos and all the fun stuff you got on there because i love hearing the pitch of your patreon it's really fun it's it's really really cool and i have to give applause to heather because she i think came up with most of it uh starfleet or patreon.com starfleet underground so that should be pretty easy to find too um but yeah we're we're on a mission to save as many tribbles as we can because they definitely need to be neutered because the triple population problem is serious yeah we always feed our tribble so we figured we had a spade in newtorm otherwise it would be like uh the short trek and that would not be good so but we we have a whole bunch of different rewards we have after dark where you could see uh the crewmen naked which is pretty fun we have postcards from the tribbles we have our starfleet underground uh scrapbook and even our number one uh patrick he'll make you a hat a star trek uh knitted hat and everything for one of these that's the expensive one that's the expensive one but it's pretty worth it because uh not too many people have gone for that one yet it's got the love in it though that's the thing very much we even have a playboy triple uh magazine so if you want to see uh play artfully done the very tasteful pictures remember not for kids people not for kids not for kids i i would also i don't know if you you want to mention this but you i know heather you have the youtube that's where i found you guys i was looking up star trek podcasts on on youtube while i was editing old episodes of ours and i found you guys on there first before finding you guys on twitter and all of that so you guys also upload your stuff to to the youtube and then i found you on the social medias and you were like and we interacted there and it's really fun so spin and yes people we've been on starfleet underground in the past we did an episode of enterprise with them it was um breaking the ice vulcan episode so if you want to hear us on their show that was one that you can check out but yeah check out their stuff like like they said they covered all of the modern star trek shows that we've that that are on you guys give some interesting pieces of information and trivia and breaking news of star trek each week as well and you've got yeah and you're covering enterprise give them a listen give them give them a go they're really great we'll include all the links of this stuff in the description of this episode you can find us on all those social medias too facebook instagram reddit twitter um yum yum pod or yum yum podcast we're always posting stuff on there always having engagement always always chatting i always uh every time starfleet underground posts a little video and if it relates to two siblings i remind them kern does exist um so um even if he doesn't remember um so so yeah you can find us on there we have our patreon as well where it's yum yum pod on the patreon rachel what do we do on our patreon we discuss even more star trek in form of the movies and also the lowest and highest rated episodes of each series according to imtp and then we also talk about other things which is our uh general thoughts on yes we give our thoughts on other shows like sense8 or doctor who or babylon five video games video games video games as well so that is where we are at all again all this is in the description thank you guys rocky and heather was so great to have you on i knew that we were gonna i knew you know heather being a big fan of jojo we're gonna lock horns on things but i still think that we we managed to come through and have a decent discussion about it without it just being like how dare you and get into a georgio fight sequence with one another she hasn't tried to kill you yet i hope i'm still allowed on your ship we always can do mud wrestling too that's another way to like do the differences so when we when we get angry we could go in the holodeck and do the mud wrestling rachel before i do the mud wrestling will you put the petroleum jelly on me so that i'm all ready to go isn't that cheating


okay i won't cheat then i'll play fair well you should you should actually because heather has all the cheat codes to the holodeck there you go there you go well a pleasure talking everyone uh we'll be back next episode to talk some more star trek discovery rachel you're my yum yum