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Welcome aboard the Starship Yum Yum in which we your intrepid hosts Ryan and Rachel Sliwinski try to break down episodes of Star Trek: Discovery without having a breakdown ourselves. This week on Yum Yum Trek we discuss “That Hope is You, Part 2“
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hi rachel hi ryan how are you um i i'm i'm mixed with how i'm feeling there's a lot of relief that comes with this episode and a lot of burden yeah a lot of grief a lot of trauma a lot of hope a lot of joy is this a year of pain and the year of joy was it a new age the end of history was it the year that everything changed the year is 2261. the place babylon 5.
we're ryan and rachel of the yum yum podcast everyone everyone's favorite phrase from star trek in general not just star trek discovery which is what we're covering but star trek move over any line of dialogue any other characters ever said commander nan's iconic line yum yum is what star trek will forever be known for from this moment forward when nerds when non-nerds when we all think star trek will think of the iconic moment in which commander nan flicked her hair back licked her lips sexily and replied yum yum to the question of whether she should murder someone or not that is what star trek is about and we have to name our show after it didn't we rachel yes we did what a moment when you got to this episode that we will be discussing and revisiting in full details and spoilers did you shed a tear that naan wasn't there at the end yeah that she wasn't like the representative of the barzans well at least we would have known why she didn't have difficulty breathing rather than it being an insert into this episode in this episode alone for who breathing because oh wow oh right right always play right it would make narrative sense that has already been built up we'll get to oh wow yeah so we are i think that she should have been there instead of oh yeah arium could have been there too but we are doing our star trek discovery re-watch and we are up to the final episode of season three i am so excited to get this toy so rachel what is the name of the episode and what is the plot according to imdb well stupidly enough because they couldn't come up with a better title apparently it's that yeah this is like a last minute change to the title and you can just i could just tell by the title i was just like oh they couldn't come up with anything else so they just backpedaled okay that hope is you part two which is seasons season threes episode 13 imdb's description is as the emerald chain tightens its grip and the mystery of the burn is finally sold i mean we already solved it two episodes go but whatever go on go on burnham and the crew have one last chance to save themselves and the federation thanks cbs all access oh that's in the imdb description they thanks cbs all access cashing the check now that was me oh that was me cbs all accesses providing that synopsis this is the final episode of the best season of star trek discovery and i am going to kick off by saying that after having watched it initially i was really interested to see what the general masses thought of it and it seems like for what is the best uh season ever of star trek discovery most people seem pretty middling to mixed on this uh it sits at a six on imdb six point three but here is some of them it's still kind of like uh you know even die-hard people like this is brilliant or eh this is a middling episode i wanna i wanna share some of the titles of reviews oh yes that are the ones that come up remember when it was fun to watch star trek i do i do doesn't know where it goes yeah no no it does to a painful degree how big is the ship lol yeah that we'll get to that [ __ ] question please make this go away right so obviously and cancel the series well obviously those are from people who already don't like the show or have had negative opinions on it but when i finished watching this the first time i was left middling on it i was just like okay that was an episode of the television series an hour of my life went away it wasn't as atrocious as the season two finale and it wasn't as like uh pathetic as the season one finale so in a way it kind of ranked out as being the best season finale of a star trek discovery one of the traditions though being boring no that wasn't the one that i was thinking of but yeah technically oh the rotating captain's chair no not that one then what the original theme you thinking oh right they have to list algebate you with the original theme and hey a gene roddenberry quote is here for you too yeah they they haven't done that in previous seasons that's that's a new thing that they decided to do for this one at the core of roddenberry's vision and this is why i believe it has endured for as long as it has is the belief that human beings will always find a way to persevere and connect to each other and that there is an optimistic outlook to where we could be going and now more than ever we need that desperately it just ended basically i was like right well that's the end of the season i just clapped my hands went okay well that was that was a journey we went on having to re-watch it for this i did not like this episode very much i found it false that's the best way to describe it i found it false i did not believe in any single moment i didn't buy the characters i didn't buy the themes i didn't buy it on purpose ryan he's like a conspiracy theory for you wolf 359 was an inside job yeah no not that one no so roo says in the episode that things may appear but not as they see yeah so says a lot of [ __ ] in this episode he's explaining that there is this duality i don't give a [ __ ] what he has to say this is what i have to say i didn't like this episode i found it meandering i found it dragged its feet i found it weirdly tonally odd and like i said i didn't buy into the the narrative the characters the themes i didn't believe anything that was happening in this episode i was always keenly aware that this was a production made by people who were being hired to do a job i never bought into the fantasy because no you weren't willing to buy into it no no it's not my fault it's not my fault if i wasn't engaged by the show that means there was something wrong with the show so rachel what was your opinions on this the first time and how are they now it was boring it was really [ __ ] boring and really stupid but not a way that made me energized and annoyed but just passively accepting that more stupidity was just gonna roll in and that most of it would just be ignored within the episode or by the next season because they don't pay attention in my opinion they don't pay attention to previous star treks and or discovery messaging or discovery or previous scenes or the previous lines of dialogue sometimes and the thing that really got me annoyed in this one where i was just like i can't hope for that up this is this is what they do um which is like you know the writers discovered that there was a dial and this style turns up how ridiculous and childish sukhar is and they would turn it up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down and then um when it when it when it went up to 11 the camera decided to shake and spin and spin okay big question is this the best season finale of star trek discovery i think it is but that isn't a high achievement um i don't know well i don't think we would say that it's season one because it had the most atrocious battle season one had no battle did it season one was just we put the bomb in the planet and then we just did a little dance i thought that there was more of a battle or am i thinking of season two you're always thinking of season two i'm always season two is just a battle and season three like it's a lot of action sequences but like i don't know i think this may be the best ending to any of these seasons because i understood what was happening it wasn't as stupid but again all that's with caveats of by like one degree like it still had all those things it's still like i still found it hard to follow or engage with i still found it action heavy i still found it annoyingly hammering in the themes to an obvious degree but my eyes weren't rolling in the back of my head as much we did not have the yum yum moment in this episode the closest we have to the yum yum moment is the she's a queen that's the closest and that's nowhere near as bizarre as yum yum because has been built throughout the season there's a thread to follow there yum yum came out of [ __ ] nowhere and it still is out of [ __ ] nowhere we're seasoned beyond it and it's still one of those things you look back and went where the [ __ ] did that come from so yeah this is the best ending but that isn't saying very much because it's like yeah it's the best ending but that just says that the other ones have been truly atrocious and or dull that this is it because i will not remember this episode once we're finished recording i didn't remember a lot of it going into the re-watch and it's only been a couple of months and like scenes would start now it'd be like oh this thing yeah like when you started the math speech i i i stuck my fingers in my ear and was humming to myself because i was like i just don't want to hear this yeah yeah look my biggest issue with this episode is that i felt the production side of everything so heavily all of the lines of dialogue all i could feel was the writer typing this down in the writer's room saying what's the theme we want to hit it's about connection just put that in the script or the visual for a while but i felt it so strongly i i feel it all the time but in this episode egregious in this episode to a next level because they're trying to ratchet everything up because it's the series finale and then obviously again a lot of these issues i'm going to be explaining are issues i've already had but it was to a degree here further the visual side of the things the spinning of the camera the lens flares the shaky cam i was constantly reminded by how show offy the visuals were via the direction that this is directed i wasn't ever engrossed visually into the story there weren't things just like i just wasn't sitting with it i was watching them spin the camera and going why is this scene being shot uh horizontally and why is this one being shot vertically like why are they back to back like that what's the meaning here why is the camera spinning why is there a lens flare over this character's face during this important line of dialogue why these choices again i'm asking questions not engaging in the material the direction and the writing combined being so overwrought was taking me out of the suspension of disbelief that one has when they watch television shows to the point in which i said to you halfway through oh man i'm noticing the acting so strongly like every single moment was me noticing that they're actors wearing costumes being directed and trying to memorize their lines of dialogue as it spits out of their mouths or i have to pretend that i'm running out of breath i was constantly thinking these are actors never thought that's saru never thought that's really everybody everybody is having their close-up moment in this episode whether literally being in a close-up or not because there are a lot of close-ups in this episode did you notice that this felt like they were rehearsals outside can be challenging dangerous see i saw it differently which is more just as a consequence of the way that this show works that the actors don't react they just act which is why everything feels so disconnected and so much like a performance because they're just trying to one-up each other because that's what the script calls for every scene is an escalation in tension and emotion and then crescendos and then falls back down and then it goes into the next scene where it's trying to ratchet it up again so nobody gets to just respond and feel it's everything has to be more more more more more so you don't get any of that feeling of this is an authentic interaction because they're just having to move things up and move things up and move things up so there's no back and forth really like i i'm mainly thinking of the scenes with tilly and the crew where i can't really remember most of the scenes just when this person talks then this person talks then this person talks and then tilly gives a command and then we rinse and repeat there's no discussion there's no interaction there's no feeling people just say how they're feeling yeah and we've said this many a times when you have a script that is like how this one is in which it is characters are just stating out loud their journeys arcs and themes no matter how great the actor is it will come across as artificial because the script is artificial the script is just literally stating what they have learned and what their arcs are and it feels very after school special it feels forced and then you have the direction trying to either bolster up the script or or distract you from it and that hinders the actors performances as well i'm trying to watch doug jones act his heart out but i can't help but notice that what the [ __ ] he's saying is nothing but metaphors and themes and while he's saying it the camera is on a dutch angle for no reason and i'm just ship's falling apart that's why they they have a reason sometimes they don't most of the times they don't the camera will just spin around to show that michael is walking down a hallway because this is what the visual language thinks is excitement you have to physically move the camera you have to shake it around you have to have the lens shifting there's always a dumbass justification that can be offered and you know what the real answer is it looks cool and that's enough that's that's my point what they're worried about doing and guess what it distracted me throughout the whole episode the script the direction the music and the acting all of these important things to hammer me into the journey i was taken out of i was noticing that this was all fake and that is a major disservice there are terrible episodes of star trek next generation that i still am engaged with in this in the idea of my suspension of disbelief there are many bad episodes where i'm still not thinking that brett spine is an actor in white makeup because i believe that character and those performances and even then there are some episodes where i am taken out so it's not just a discovery thing this is just a basic 101 thing the direction is overwrought the writing is artificial thus the acting false flat it doesn't help that discovery has no good will built up with either of us anymore i like saroo i still like suru but in this episode i didn't believe a [ __ ] word that came out of his mouth oh i meant more so in terms of the direction in particular but the show overall has no good will with me because like going into the re-watch i knew what they did with saroo so i was just like well i am even more disappointed in him because they've they've forced him into this corner to make room for michael yeah and i remember the the end like i remember what they do to him but when i'm re-watching it i forget that the lines of dialogue are constructed the way that they are and they come out of doug jones's mouth the way that it does and the camera's spinning the way that it does i do have good faith and good will in some aspects of star trek discovery doug jones and the character of ceru being one of them but and he's his best feels a lot better than everyone else's but but like even him my my my beacon in this show i did not believe him for a single moment here and that says a lot i am my my predisposition is to like saroo and i wanted to like him here but i didn't believe a single thing that doug jones was saying all i could see was the writers in their writer's room looking at their note cards on the board and saying we're achieving that one with this scene with suru it's all fake it's it's fiction it's made up it's written by writers it never happened it never happened this one was invented by a writer not this time it never happened it's false it never happened it's a fake let's talk about the plots there are three primarily let's start off with suru on the planet with sukhal yes and with grey and adira um how about we start with gray okay what do you want to say i think it's stupid and it makes it feel like all of these other scenes that have happened throughout the season are just for you to have that one line of dialogue being like we're gonna make you real we're gonna make you be seen and all i see when i see that too is when when they have that moment like you said it's all there for that you know what i see now i see that line of dialogue and how some hack internet journalist is going to blow that up as the headline and have an article saying the show runners are going to make great scene in season 4. it's a promise that's all i see oh yeah it's built for clickbait and you know what he does a decent enough job delivering it but it also just it feels so frustrating because it's just like it feels like they've been building up to it all season and also like it's an afterthought within the scene which makes it feel very odd because there's such weight to the moment and such importance by the characters and the acting being placed on it and then it just gets washed away in the tidal wave of action that immediately comes afterwards you also don't care because of what we stated two episodes ago gray is not a character gray is there to serve the theme that this is relating to we don't understand who grey is we can only take the character's word for what gray is as a character themselves when they say gray has such beautiful caring eyes sure i'll take your word for that that's something that you've cared about graham kind of i'm sure i'll take your word for it i'll take your word again we talked about this all of the stuff happens off screen a lot gray literally disappeared for several episodes just so that this line can hit harder we have never got to know gray and gray's been dead the whole time so we are supposed to know grey through their relationship with adira but we never really got to explore or hear much about their relationship not to the extent that you needed to hit off for this we only really had this scene where you um like grey's like um i'm a bit nervous and the deer is just like here have this quilt that i made for you i'm an art genius you know like yeah like what that's that's it you know how we know this is an old tactic though on star trek discovery's part right you have a couple you separate them off and you rely on the audience to believe in their relationship because you had one tender scene in the whole season between them season one hugh and paul barely interact but they have that one toothbrushing scene that's enough to build their relationship for two to three seasons on just that one scene and here with adira and and and and uh great do you want to make we have the quilt scene that's all we have we don't know anything else about them other than gray died and was uh put inside of adira and now adira holds grey literally close to their heart but that's you don't know about yourself you want to make one thing clear this is still not as bad as burnham and tyler's really nothing is nothing's as bad as that i just i just want to make sure that i'm making it clear that's my stance like it it's negligibly there but entirely written but it's not as badly handled it kind of is because tyler and burnham's relationship sucked objectively like within the show they say it sucked but at least they showed the building blocks towards them getting together even if it was sloppily done while hugh and paul and adira and grey we have to buy their relationships to one another in labor because they're in relationships on a singular scene and then you have to care about that about that that one scene like oh the toothbrushing saying oh the quilt scene gray is a hologram i think that's a cool idea gray is a vulcan for some reason i guess so i mean whatever it doesn't like i was thinking about this too why did they choose the alien designs for the characters that they chose i'm trying to think about it thematically what are they trying to say i cannot figure out a good enough reason why they picked what they did because they could have chosen anything and you hoped that they would have gone for something with thematic purpose because they're driving home those themes but we were like that no not really like i was trying to think of their things and being like okay was a writer what would the idea be here and i'm like okay suru is a human makes sense he's emulating humanity he's trying to be a human in a lot of ways okay and then i was like oh and michael obviously would be a vulcan because that spin a lot of her character things right of course but then i'm like but what would you be oh okay [ __ ] it just make them whatever whatever [ __ ] it just make anyone whatever it doesn't matter because what would you be as an alien you don't know
thermodynamics energy cannot be created or destroyed it only changes states even in death his energy passed through me while i was the link to the network gray is a character now apparently that they want to pursue a storyline in season four it's evident with how they leave it off season four's whole story line with grace most likely gonna be let's resurrect you or make you be seen by everyone very reminiscent beats to hugh's story in season two are you at all interested in seeing this progress no why because i don't care about adira i don't care about grey and i did not like the way that they've handled the found family aspect with hugh adira and paul yeah i mean it's it's you you nailed it i don't know who grey is so why should i care about finding out more when they've wasted the entire time that's it like i don't care okay so let's move on i guess to saroo and tsukal god what a miserable [ __ ] experience it was every time we cut back to them slowly moving because it's only one goal there's only one thing that the story has to achieve which is suru convincing sukhoi to open the [ __ ] door and it slowly chips away at it and they try and make it make sense that it's being paced in this way but i could never forget and it always felt to me like they were doing it little bits at a time so it kept pace with the other storyline it never felt like it was natural the way that it was going and the way that saroo was approaching the problem it just felt like well we've done all of this work so it would make sense that sukhar would trust saru and then they're going to go into the room and maybe have one conversation and then su kyle puts his hand down and they re-watch the video it's a non-dynamic story because we've said this a few times in star trek discovery it's the same scene again and again and again until it isn't anymore yes it is sukhoi rejecting the idea of moving forward and and ceru being like but i'm a kelpien too and i'm here to help you you must understand sentience and then you call me like well i never wanted this for you outside is scary inside is scary but outside is good come back outside is scary honestly i honestly think you could rearrange so many of the sukhoi scenes and there would be really no difference no really no difference and again three episodes one scene ends with him saying that he's gonna go see the elder and then the next one is them at the empty elder chair so you can't swap those two around said that no no you know what you can do you know what you can do you can you can cut that first scene and just cut to him being like the old is gone easy no no seriously no i know that is exactly right it doesn't even matter that what we know the ending of the whole thing we find stupid the idea of the burn being caused by a little boy crying really hard one time forget that delete that off the page that's not the problem we have with this storyline in this episode it is just it's stupidly slow and aggravatingly paced because it is just the same conversation repeated five times until they just decide let's stop doing that now we've moved forward and now we can open the door the time is up these things have happened on the ship so now we're good to shut this down because now they can actually save us and again the script the acting the direction all of the conversations between sukhar and suru do not feel real it only feels like script writing it only feels like here is the theme here is the message here is what we are the writers are trying to communicate to you it does not feel like characters talking it feels like the script is just vomiting out of the screen into my face and that i should get it guys i got it there is a thing called subtlety you're okay i know you don't feel that right now but you are and it's okay to be afraid
the elder used to say that even in fear so-called you can still step forward a big portion of this too is this episode is relying on us caring not only just about sue carl as a character who i don't i find that performance very silly i find it and i i think i made my opinion clear with the dialogue the dialogue yeah and the dial analogy as well and i i think sue carl is too like mentally deficient to like honestly like the way he reacts to everything i just want to grab him by the shoulders and be like wake the [ __ ] up idiot he aggravated the [ __ ] out of me see i don't feel that way about him necessarily so you're a teacher i think that's the difference i have more compassion than you do oh no no you know why you have more compassion than me because i was so burnt out by this point i don't see this this thing as something worth my compassion all i see this thing is as a script writing device to generate drama and to extend the run time sue carl isn't a character to me sue cole is words on a page yeah hence why does that deserve my compassion that it never degrades to the point where i think of him as a thing i as i just think of him as a plot device he's a prop that the writers are using but i refuse i refuse to let them them and their deficits allow me to not feel compassion for a character that is coded as being essentially disabled and i'm like no you don't get to do that they can code tsukul all they like but they failed at making me believe in him and care about him so he does not deserve my compassion at all he caused a universal destruction he caused a universal disaster and he's annoying as well like like i oh you could say the same stuff about nelix oh nelix has all of this stuff i still [ __ ] hate nelix okay the big thing that this episode relies on too other than me caring about sue carl as an individual characters i have to care about sukhol enough to believe that suru would throw away his entire [ __ ] character arc and journey and belief system to hang out with this guy i don't [ __ ] buy that for a second sweetheart he so roo has to make sure that sukhal gets floated in a particular pool of water during the reed's shower and they didn't even show that no no they didn't because that was something that was gonna happen after the next round of talks well they showed us them on on camera looking up at the stars so they didn't show us them on camera they could have shown they're floating but instead think that that was actually a camera yes i didn't i didn't realize that that was meant to be kaminar yeah that's coming out in the future
it's it's scary to envision a world that is different because this is the only world we know but by trusting and connecting and going out into the wider world he by the end of the season gets to see love and connection all around him he gets to go back to kaminar with suru and experience a life that he never would have gotten to experience otherwise sue cole destroyed the galaxy because he screamed real loud and i had a good chuckle when they said it's not your fault and i kind of went ah it kind of is his fault i mean i know he didn't mean to do it but it's still his fault he has responsibility without necessarily being culpable yeah it's still his fault it's still his fault but what the show said it's not your fault you didn't mean to do it no but you would say that to a child he's not a child but he he functions as a child when they want him to oh when they want him to fair enough absolutely so that dial gets cranked up so they reveal the cause of the burn and then they say oh my god so cold did the burn we just found out what happened yeah we knew that well they did
conservatively they did it three times in this episode alone right they had to really explain to us that he did it and this is how he did it it reminded me of remembering season one and this is when it happened yeah and how it happened why and all this and it remind me you remember in season one when when they painstakingly but foolishly kept trying to explain what the [ __ ] ash tyler was and it was still confusing that's what this felt like but it wasn't confusing we got it guys he calls the bird because he did a [ __ ] banshee scream real loud one time and he could do it again answer me this how how do they know that taking him off of this ship means that he won't be capable of doing that again because that's what hugh says oh that's it done he just says that how does he know he doesn't he hasn't even scanned him no but his theory is that he's a pollywog theory theory and it's because like he's connected to the dilithium and whatever the dilithium um has a subspace connection and that amplifies because he's near so much dilution it's amplifying and then being sent out into subspace and then connecting with the other dilithium but if he's not near such a big source he's not dangerous but it still means that if he's on the ship and cries that he could make their warp core unstable he just can't destroy the entire universe anymore i want to issue an a a correction i want to admit that there's a big egg on both of our faces we dared to call discovery lazy when adira could somehow have the knowledge to put the medication in their mouth but she knew this episode but they knew that they were transporting into a hollow they said they said the line i heard over the computer when i was on the ship that you guys were in a hollow blah blah blah blah i do not remember any visual way of them showing that in those two previous episodes them communicating that at any point especially when they had no ability to communicate and my thing is you know that they had to put that line in this episode because it was clearly evident that it was not explained well enough in the previous episodes so they had to have the actor of adira say that line out loud so us the audience can understand because they didn't show us again tell us don't show us is the rule of thumb here what are you doing here um i brought medicine how i hit it in my mouth
we heard you on board so i knew i'd be landing in hollow so is it time for tilly first and then phantom what did you think of this i the payoff i wanted to laugh at one particular moment but it made me so disappointed that i couldn't even laugh at it properly i love the acting i love the acting of them suffocating it was really good tilly's gasping for her last breath said admitting that she's dying what just sounds like hiccups it sounds like the actress gave herself hiccups why not gasping and they kept that take that's my personal opinion and storyline for why that take is the way that it is my favorite is what's the asian guy's name in the crew is he bryce yeah i think so or reese whichever one he is i loved there was a moment in which it was like they're all suffocating falling on the ground you see them doing their heavy breathing and there was a moment where the camera had slightly panned over and you saw him in the shot and you saw that the actor had just stopped acting and he was just relaxing and chilling out and it was amazing i had a good chuckle at that that was really good i really liked that it took me out of the already lacking amount of immersion i had um tilly solves the situation by regaling us with a story about this interaction michael and her had that we never saw on screen and we have no understanding of when that would have happened in the timeline of things and it was a great day of sex mark in a moment in which michael bestowed upon them the plan how come that happened rachel why couldn't tilly figure out the solution or anyone within that storyline they couldn't they're too dumb they need michael to lead them they need michael but doesn't that make this part of the story less interesting that oh yeah all 14 of those characters including the super computer couldn't figure out a solution do it couldn't do it michael has to rescue everybody because you know earlier in the season they said that she had a god complex and that she's trying to work on it but you know instead we're just gonna give michael more proof that she is so amazing that she's essentially a god and she saves everybody it's just not fun to watch and i think random thing that got under my skin yeah which is totally innocuous but it still bothered me anyway which is when michael is talking with osira and trying to convince osiris to do the stuff for the admiral yeah like let her talk to the admiral and restoring life support and all of those things she keeps on saying my crew and i'm like [ __ ] you got demoted it's not your crew but
you're part of the crew you're not [ __ ] in charge you don't get to say mike she is in charge hillary's the one that's in charge no no but michael's in charge because they say it must be michael and michael go go be the hero and save the day so it is michael she got [ __ ] demoted no no rachel rachel follow [ __ ] orders rachel in a situation like this ranks don't [ __ ] matter what does matter is she's the protagonist and that's the end of it and i find that disappointing it's just not fun to watch this section of the story with tilly and the crew because they don't do anything on their own or figure anything on their own out they have to have michael come in halfway through on the overhead speaker and and give this give them the plan give them a cryptic speech then we have to wait for tilly to explain what the [ __ ] that was and we again you know take way like well she's out of breath that's why it's slow and away it's so annoying how long they go on for but they're like you know gasping halfway through a word instead of like you know just thinking about what they're gonna say before they start talking because they know that they're running out of air but they're running on adrenaline just like book see it ties in no efficiency in oxygen depletion required i will say it is very funny to watch like 15 characters in a b story that all speak like stevie from malcolm in the middle i had a good chuckle at that it was very funny to me i know a joke star trek discovery when they exploded the nacelles the nacelle and it was like okay they detach it the the poignancy of the writing oh just out of nowhere says i can breathe fine you see my backstory is remember that i'm a luddite and i grew up in a culture in which i could hold my breath really well guys guys i actually can serve a purpose in this story unlike every other [ __ ] episode and boy oh boy when she said that my jaw clenched up with fury because i'm thinking to myself whenever they write future scripts of their stories and have a situation what's to stop the writers having any character come in and just say nothing it's like nothing stops them from doing it it's like ready player one you know in the book ready player one it's like the main character is this big [ __ ] mary sue guy who walks around being like i've played joust all of my life i've just referenced this now so that the audience knows that i'm capable of this is never like built up towards yeah that's what this is at least the she's a queen they built up towards that but oh being able to hold her breath there's more backstory to the line she's a queen then oh who's childhood then oh wow sorry i put i i don't know seriously seriously you've spent more time emphasizing the [ __ ] cat in this show we've had all episodes where they stopped the story to just go where's the cats and the cats over here we get crutch grudge updates grudge updates are a thing remember yeah i couldn't tell you who o.o is couldn't tell you other than she's a luddite in one episode and that she's detma's friend and that she wasn't but she wasn't good enough of a friend to air him to get a give a speech at her funeral but michael was whatever whatever i mean when when um no no but you have a great point if not if none was still in the show yeah she could have solved this situation and it would have made sense from a viewer perspective because it's a part of her character physically and it's something that's been set up and paid off before we've seen her get hurt nan when you take her breathing stuff off in this season we saw her in a natural breathing environment if nan was still here this situation would have worked far better because it wouldn't have affected her in the same way but no they kicked her off the show so now we have oh and the dot instead she's on a seed ship somewhere she's on a seed ship somewhere we'll never see her again um what did you think about the whole dot aspect remember last week we talked with jonas about at the end of that it was like building you have to be like look at these dots they're going to do all this what did you think about how they were open why did they even bother um because we had to get a reminder that the sphere data existed wasn't michael turning the ship back on in the sphere data's voice coming on enough no oh okay it wasn't because people won't remember that that's the voice of the sphere data and not just the general voice of the computer i guess i guess you're right i underestimate people's lacking attention span when the the dots crawled up to oh oh and being like i died so you could live and then they like that's why the dots were here immediately resurrected yeah immediately that's why the dots are here and what i mean by that is and no offense to people no offense but it's easy emotional manipulation you've got a cute little creature died to sacrifice themselves to save every everyone and then at the end you resurrect them and their little eyes glow up and they do the little vulcan salute it's cute it's meant to be adorable it's manipulative that's why the dots were here to emotionally manipulate you with a tragic thing happening to a cute object and then the cute object coming back to life it's not a character the sphere data and the dots are not characters they are cute things that you want to own and hang on your dashboard that's all they are are we to presume the appearance of the dot 23s to confirm that discovery now has a bit of a consciousness is it sentient as a ship does the ship care about the crew is the ship i feel like since the sphere data was uploaded into the ship the ship is is starting to change and the way that it the way that the computer talks to the crew is different and and the expectations the crew has of the computer is different but now here we see personified it would appear yes that sphere data crawling up and saying by the way i'm still here let's talk osira and michael and what a fun [ __ ] time that that was to watch it's just action right yeah like literally i think 90 of the lines are action one-liners that you would see in a genuine like stallone movie it's nothing but terrible terrible one-liners so many bad lines up here you son of a she's a queen yeah well
i'm like you
i never quit do you come to star trek for the action no do you come to it for the action one-liners no do you come to it for the kung fu no that's why i don't want to come dude do you come to it for violence being the solution no okay then what are we doing what's this if the show is about connection and the importance of connection and that's what this is saying like it's about connection and quote at the end of it it's about connection then how does just brutally murdering osira and then doing a snappy one-liner communicate that theme oh i left i i i wasn't saying anything because there is none there's none there's none that like there is none so they captured book in the previous episode and they're going to give him this truth serum but they know it won't work on him now because he has a tolerance for it because it's been drugged so many times yeah so they're going to use that neural thing on him to torture him because it won't work on him because he's an empath but this is also that they could torture him to break michael yeah that's the that's the thing they know that their their book isn't going to tell them because they can't get it out of him by the drugs or the neurologic but they can torture him to the point where michael will break yeah i thought this like the scientists still believed that the truth serum would work but but uh cowboy guy knew it wouldn't cowboy broken hand man not tim roth not tim roth i knew believed that it wouldn't and oh sarah trusted not tim roth yeah more than the scientist and it gave her an excuse to threaten him and you know what i found just stupid what telling a character important information while you're choking them out well like there's no guarantee that he's gonna remember that because like he held out until she finished talking that's just
that's just for the drama and then the same sort of thing annoys me when michael is announcing uh on the ship like any crew that is able come to the how do you know bridge they're awake no that's her waking them up they're awake right now none of them are awake right now and you're telling them to go to the bridge and yet somehow all of them heard it well that woke them up if michael because you know if michael was telling me to get up i would get up out of my eye that she would shoot me in the [ __ ] face you know or eject me into space you know what everybody is known for like you know when you've been surrendered unconscious because you've been suffocated but they've got the air that you immediately are able to wake up be cognitive listen attentively to what somebody is saying to you as you are waking up and then immediately get up and go to the bridge what's great about that is i think you're being nitpicking and biased bye-bye but the thing is fine you are like that because what is there to hold on to am i right like like i totally get where you're coming from that frustrates frustrates me too and in any other given episode of television delays i wouldn't care because there's other stuff to hold on to but there's nothing to hold on to so these things what frustrated me the most i'll give you this in the whole michael stuff outside of her being captain at the end and the admiral speech which was crazy they walk into the data core room and this is this big set and i'm and i i remember thinking this the first time i'm thinking at this time they never set this [ __ ] rumor what the [ __ ] is this where did this come from the [ __ ] is this [ __ ] on the wall that has no safety barrier that are apparently
that's programmable matter and it's like a big white room and they're setting it up like you know this place we set this up before and i don't know when have we ever seen that earlier in the episode they said we need to get to the data core to do that and then apparently that's the data core i'll give you an example of how this fails remember in season two they set up several episodes earlier that control could be killed by magnetizing the floor thus at the end when they killed control by magnetizing the floor it was like oh yes of course blah blah blah we got to see the steps but here it's like and now osiris and michael face off in this random room we don't have any cons concept of we don't know what the [ __ ] it is we just know the name data core room and you're like okay i guess like that's where instead of the bridge they should have had the scene where it's just like okay everything's now been upgraded yeah yeah you give the tour of the new ship from the inside as well as outside going down here's this room just have that conversation on instead of on the bridge in this room in in the data core room so then it makes some sense but this goes back to our issue of when they retrofitted the ship we don't understand anything because even even star trek the next generations encounter at farpoint understood how important it was to show us what's where on the ship and what's this remember the iconic scene of them entering the holodeck for the first time for us the audience and there's pica i mean there's data in there and all of this stuff it was letting us know oh holodecks exist and this is where they are and this is the engine room and this is where this person's quarters are this is 10 forward and this is this is this we don't know where this data core room is yet it's in it's pivotal it's pivotal to the defeat of osira not just in terms of killing her but making sure that they get the ship back i don't know where the [ __ ] this is you have to keep very meticulous track of who when where and why and we have people in the room whose soul in the writer's room is soul job is to say nope can't do that let's talk about the uh death of osira um i didn't realize that she actually had died not me neither the first time i was like wait she's i was just like okay she's dead and then we went to the next scene and you're like where's osira and i'm like she's she's dead michael shot her and you were like no it was just so pointless and nonchalant and and and it was like they don't show her dead body so i don't believe that she's dead it's just the way that it was done it was it was very dissatisfying i mean osiris was a dissatisfying villain she was a waste of space but they killed her off like in such a path again i keep saying it pathetic pathetic pathetic pathetic osira was a waste of time and energy oh yeah why did we even have her here literally i was saying about how su carl is a thing to me osira could have been a plank of wood painted green with googly eyes and she would have been as impactful to me i would like to see this season but they've like do a deep fake and they replace osira with sparky i take it back about osira being an object and being useless because in fact star trek has had many villains that are just a [ __ ] tin can with no human face on it has that has been more interesting vija from the motion picture is a far more a like far far better antagonist and far more emotionally engaging to me than osiris no i really didn't know that osara died that first time michael just shot her real quick and then moved on usually they make a big fanfare about killing their villains in this show but this was done just like it was a sunday afternoon like what about osiris death was as spectacular or grand or even poignant as michael uh choking that guy out with her thighs last episode nothing it was saira is an embarrassment all means nothing but grudge she's a queen she's a queen the guy the cowboy guy he died the exact same way narissa did in star trek picard and that's something we haven't talked about we watch this after star trek picard this season right a lot of the beats of this season were repeats from star trek picard so if people haven't watched star trek picard this doesn't matter to them but if they have and they uh pay attention to it like we do a lot of season three fell flat because we had seen this just like a couple of weeks earlier in star trek picard when the cowboy guy got kicked into the massive chasm inside of a spaceship and and the person kicking them said like this is for such and such like in star trek picard this is for you and then this one is she's a queen it fell completely like oh well we're hitting the same notes again i just wanted to raise that because that is an important thing to mention it's not necessarily like that star trek discovery's fault but that is an issue when we're being given so many star treks at the same time and they're written by a lot of the same people who just have the same ideas that are going to repeat over and over and over again and it's unfortunate because we've seen star trek repeat the same plots ideas character stuff over and over and over again of course we have but just in terms of like two of the villains die the exact same way and i imagine there's some tricky out there going it's a reference to the search for spock when they kick krug into the hellscape i've had about enough of you no it was just it's just lame i wanted to point that out and i want to point out too the big admiral scene at the end who was that character i've never seen that character before he was he was literally acting like a different person in that final scene don't you agree he's like smiling from ear to ear and he's doing all these hand gestures and he's talking like this upbeat manner i didn't know who this guy was i just i just didn't care at that point but he gave the alphabet speech
your favorite speech very very awful yes the math speech but the lesson he was bestowing is she did it her way not the right one and other people didn't see that she was right but she's proven that her methods work now i got a real question it's all okay the lesson here being bestowed is sometimes the right way is your way meaning michael's way yeah if you're on the main character in the show yeah yeah yeah but let's forget that the uh the understanding is the right way to do things isn't always the morally just way yes because michael's way the implication i don't think that they really must no no they must because they do point out how how michael has screwed over everyone to achieve the things the way that she wants to achieve them and it's been morally condemned but here at the end i think i just don't want to admit that that's what happened because that's not what i want star trek to be but but at the end the admiral says yeah but you got results your ends justified the means which is the section no no no no no real question now what what separates her doing these morally reprehensible things for her own goals that do better the greater scheme of things to what locker was doing in season one when he was pretending to be a good captain doing the exact same things because in season one they morally condemned him for doing that yet he was saving lives just like michael what's the difference other than she's not a mirror verse evil captain what's the difference between their rationales points of views morals and and actions just the locker was willing to endanger the crew and the crew is the characters we're attached to and care about was he willing to endanger the crew though think about it the only thing he was willing to endanger was paul to get the spore drive to work but hasn't michael been willing to endanger many other people to do things as well yeah she's willing to blow them up yeah seriously what separates them now nothing that's other than the show says one is right once i was trying to think of something and that was the best thing that i could pull out of my ass and it didn't even work the only thing that separates them is how the show frames it locker is lit in dark evil lighting he's played by an evil british man doing a southern accent and the show constantly says what he's doing is wrong and then at the end proves that he was wrong to do so here michael has people saying she's doing the wrong thing but then at the end everyone claps and says you know what it was all worth it in the end i see no difference other than the the the show's rationale of well lorca was a mirror first captain so what he was doing is evil and wrong but when he was pretending before that reveal they were still morally condemning him here they they praised michael and reward her at the end i see no difference really what the hell do you think you're doing i thought terrell was gonna throw a fit and he's a damn vulcan i did what i thought was best you launched an unauthorized rescue mission using a convicted mutineer the point being she didn't do things the right way she did it her way and it worked
not long ago we were standing right here and i was staring into you for not doing it the right way but i'll be damned if your way didn't work too i'll ask you this did you think she was going to become captain yes how did you feel disappointed because sarah never really got to be captain like he got his moments but there was so much more that i felt that you could still do with saru and i didn't want him to be shafted off to kaminar it was untapped potential they had so much more that they could do with him as captain suru but they've just thrown it to the side for this rotating captain's chair is more important than satisfying character genius uh i knew she was gonna become captain well we knew that that was gonna eventually happen from the first season i knew that she was gonna become captain this season with what they're doing with saroo i just felt it in my bones oh yeah we were like they they couldn't prime to get rid of him yeah when it happened i just was resigned to the fact i accepted it and said i guess we'll now have one person in the captain's chair from this point on maybe the new uniforms they're there they're [ __ ] terrible to look at but hey they're there and when she said the let's fly that that that cemented it for me that really cemented it that was the final moment of the episode right it cemented it to me when i really went oh oh i've been thinking this whole time that they've been screwing the characters over so that michael can get into the captain's chair no no no no they had this line written down very early and they knew that they wanted to get to this [ __ ] great line to end the show that's where they worked from that's what it felt like it felt like they worked from end credits and backwards it felt like we they had let's fly as michael sits in the captain's chair and they went [ __ ] that's it now let's engineer the whole [ __ ] show to that and it sent a chill down my spine because what is the artistic integrity of this season is there any because although i've had problems with season one and season two i could say that there was some artistic integrity in some moments some character stuff some scenes some episodes but i don't think i could say that for season three what about you you're you're harsh but you're not as harsh as me when it comes to this stuff what do you think the show overall has maybe 0.01 in artistic integrity and i think some departments have more integrity than others i think the writing has negative artistic integrity i do think that the costume department has a decent amount compared to others those new uniforms um yeah don't think that they i i think that they spend the costume department i feel suffers from thinking about things too much they over design too they're over design which is again like not a great saying and then artistic integrity but you know it's more than the writer's show and then the cg people have a decent amount in my opinion too much too much again with the costumes though what makes the new uniform stand out weird is we have become accustomed to the over-designed nature of every piece of costume so then at the end when we have these very minimalist costumes where they're just like this block of gray with a random stripe of color you feel like you reject it because that's not the iconography of the show i reject this iconography it doesn't even match up trainers won't go with this uniform their uniforms also didn't match the aesthetic of the discovery those uniforms match the aesthetic of starfleet hq which is like bright white sterile right but the dark gritty dower silver color escape of the discovery does not help those grey uniforms hence in the next season they've got new uniforms they've got new uniforms they've changed the uniforms again so because no one likes these gray uniforms so there you go so a little different from what we've done in discovery in terms of color no no no no we're not talking about oho now we're talking about you now whoo
she's a queen so hugh's done for the season yeah what was he uh what was he doing in this episode he he was giving people hugs and exposition what kind of exposition i don't know what kind of exposition was it ryan he was just telling us that zukul did the burn over and over and over again he felt like one of the holograms that was breaking
seriously seriously he was repeating himself so many times we got the information hugh you told us two episodes ago you told us this episode like 15 million times he felt like one of those [ __ ] holograms that was just stuck on the same program and they couldn't escape it until the radiation consumed them we praised hugh as a character this season far more than we ever have yeah and then you get to this episode and it made me and it made me question what the [ __ ] have i been praising yeah what the [ __ ] tell me what's his character who is he in this episode who is he who is you here he's back to being more of the smiling and nodding guy that we me we know and love that's it that's it smiles and nods and that's it he is there to give exposition he is there to hammer in the teams of found family and being seen and that's it he's there to tell us why sukhar did the burn and how he could do it and he's there to say gray we're going to give you a story next season too that's it that's all you served as a function in this episode do you want to see more of him i ask this every season do you want to see more of you as a character next season like like where do you want to see him go what do you want i don't care he'll probably still be there and it will likely be stupid and useless i'm not interested i i i'm no longer invested in seeing them develop him further into a character this is what he is he is at if when if this was a program and we're installing it on our computer right and we're installing this program called hugh culver yeah it never gets past 15 percent he's at 15 character for three seasons he moved surprised that he went up to 50. he moved from the two percent that he had in the first two seasons to 15. but now it's regressed back no no no he's stuck at 15 and i don't think he's ever going to progress further because he never progressed further in this season he should be a fledged character three seasons in i feel like we are stuck at that loading bar any of them fully fledged
but they take back so much of saroo's character don't care he was a fully fledged character you're willing to give them credit for that yeah saroo tilly as well has been a fully fledged character many times ever i'm not saying that these are things i that their characters are like but i was just curious hugh he's stuck on that loading bar and eventually you just have to close that program and shut down the computer yeah even though they did essentially reboot him yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no exactly we've already rebooted it and it's still not working so i'm not interested in this program anymore i promise you it's all good what would you give this episode it's a yum yum i give this episode a yum yum people can find us on the internet uh twitter facebook instagram yum yum podcast on those you can email us at yumyumpod.gmail.com to let us know your thoughts questions queries concerns about things we've said your views on the show all of that great stuff you can rate and review us and whatever podca does so we would greatly love that we it would enrich us it would give us the yum yums if you gave us yum yums which is of course good ratings uh we have a patreon in which we are talking about other episodes of star trek we're talking about the movies on there we're talking about our general thoughts on other television shows and i don't want to spoil anything but uh we have uh some announcements on there that uh will eventually come out on here but if you want to know where the future of yum yum pod is going you can always hit on the patreon to find out where we are sailing off to next or you can just wait here so rachel that's it that is star trek discovery season three that is star trek discovery up to date we are up to date on discovery i feel great about being up to date on it i feel like we've we've ticked this one off the list i feel like the last almost year of doing this that we were never going to get to the end of like the timeline of discovery and there of course will be more seasons to come along but it has been a long road from here to there.